Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Continuing Arc

[Lindley]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
“Mind War”
First, Talia is given telekinetic abilities. I can’t for the life of me remember that coming up again. Am I in for a surprise do to a sketchy memory?

Talia's story was mostly transferred to Lyta when Andrea Thompson left. The telekinesis thing was probably going to play the same story-role as Lyta's "Vorlon upgrade".

Secondly, Ironside tells Sinclair that he’ll see him in a million years. Does that mean Sinclair is going to the Vorlon homeworld after the destruction of Earth as seen in “Deconstruction of Falling Stars?” I wish we saw where his journey ended, after what “War Without End” only offers a glimpse of. Maybe his story will be continued/concluded in the Lost Tales?

I've always taken it as a given that the energy-form humans at the end of "Deconstruction" were what was being foreshadowed there.

Are those the First Ones she runs into at the planet she is surveying? I remember them being the Shadows on my first viewing, but seeing them now they are clearly of different design. G’Kar does say they are billions of years old.

They're typically called the Walkers, mostly due to G'kar's description. They show up again in "Voices of Authority" (season 2) and their ship is one of those seen in "Into the Fire".

You may have confused them with the Shadows due to the fact that Ivanova's first encounter with The Eye----the Shadow equivalent of the Great Machine----comes while her mind is in the vicinity of Sigma 957 in "Voices".

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Lindley said:

Secondly, Ironside tells Sinclair that he’ll see him in a million years. Does that mean Sinclair is going to the Vorlon homeworld after the destruction of Earth as seen in “Deconstruction of Falling Stars?” I wish we saw where his journey ended, after what “War Without End” only offers a glimpse of. Maybe his story will be continued/concluded in the Lost Tales?

I've always taken it as a given that the energy-form humans at the end of "Deconstruction" were what was being foreshadowed there.

I think that's partly the case, but the way he identifies Sinclair specifically makes me think there's something more there.

And I'm glad there's more to those aliens Sakai runs into. I look foward to those episodes.

Thanks, Lindley.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

"Deathwalker"
A mostly forgettable standalone episode, though after seeing the entire series (and the numerous references to the Dilgar War), it was nice to be reminded as to what the conflict was actually about. Some important foreshadowing concerning Talia, but the A-Plot is pretty by the numbers.

C+

"Believers"
This episode wasn't any good when I saw it a few months ago as "The Woman King" on Battlestar Galactica, and that episode, as lame as it was, was infinitely superior to this one. Every Trek convention and cliche is repeated here. The only points it gets are for the ending (and even that can be seen a mile away), and those are me being generous (and not wanting to admit that Infection may not be the worst episode of the season). Why does Franklin keep getting stuck with boring, predictable standalone episodes testing his moral fiber (as if we didn't understand that part of his character already).

A Generous: C-

"Survivors"
This episode was pretty good, but it loses points for Garibaldi's amazingly quick recovery from alcoholism (gladly, in season five, they didn't repeat this mistake). I know they use Douglas Netter as the photo for Santiago, but was that his voice on the com channel as the President in this episode? And speaking of which, that last scene between Garibaldi and the Presidential Security Chief is pretty chilling, considering the forthcoming events in "Chrysalis." Does that mean she's going to die? I don't remember Garibaldi reacting to her death at all in the episode (but I suppose he was more worried about being shot and all).

B+

"By any Means Necessary"
My friend Andrew, who I've been watching the series with, was pretty impressed with this episode. I think it's the first one that's suggested to him that the series could be something more. I liked it more on second viewing then I did the first. Mostly, it's not as exciting as it should be. These are serious issues concerning the workers, and parts of it just fall flat. I hate to compare to BSG again, but I felt "Dirty Hands" helped keep a similar plot moving better than this one. But, then again, that episode didn't have the benefit of G'Kar and Londo having a spat, which, by the way, is also something Andrew is responding too with delight. There two great characters, and, especially knowing their outcomes, it's nice to see their relationship develop.

B+

 

[Mal]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:


"Believers"
This episode wasn't any good when I saw it a few months ago as "The Woman King" on Battlestar Galactica, and that episode, as lame as it was, was infinitely superior to this one.

A Generous: C-

"Survivors"
This episode was pretty good, but it loses points for Garibaldi's amazingly quick recovery from alcoholism (gladly, in season five, they didn't repeat this mistake).

B+

ordinarily i'm all about: personal opinion, yada yada yada, each to their own, yada yada yada, but WTF

Believers is one of my favorite episodes of Season 1 (my favorite being Born of the Purple). And it would be one thing if you just disagreed, but to say that nBSG's "The Woman Kind" did it better?!?!?!?!?!??!!?!????!!!! i saw that episode, and thought - what shit is this? - B5 did this way better so many years ago

As for Survivors, that is one of my personal favorites of the series as a whole! i love the introduction of alcoholism, which the show does not drop (you can be a recovering alcoholic for decades, and then slip back in, FYI), and which forms one of my favorite aspects of season 5. that, and i have a real thing for brunettes

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
I'm glad they don't drop the alcoholism, but they do kind of gloss over it in this episode (Garibaldi has to be in fighting shape right after being too drunk to walk).

As for Believers, well, just my opinion. I don't really like standalone episodes, which is probably why season one of B5 is my least favorite year of the show. I watch things like "Mind War," "Babylon Squared," and "Chrysalis" and I just want the show to go into overdrive with the arc.

Believers might work if the parents and the child were either related to or were main characters. As it is, they're just members of an alien race that has never been seen before, and will never be seen again. We already know Franklin has a strict moral compass-- that was better explained when we learned about him destroying his records on the Minbari during the war. So what do we gain from this episode besides a lesson that we've seen before and will see again? Just my two cents, though. I'm glad you enjoyed the episode. I don't want to take that away from you due to my complaining. How about we reach middle ground-- Sleeping in Light, incredible episode of television.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

I've managed to put a huge number of Babylon 5 episodes under my belt in the past two days (somehow managed to fit them in). But, I have been lazy with my reviews, so I'll just put my grades up and say a few words at the end.

1x13 Signs and Portents A-
1x15 Grail B-
1x16 Eyes B
1x18 A Voice in the Wilderness, I B+
1x19 A Voice in the Wilderness, II B+
1x20 Babylon Squared A
1x21 The Quality of Mercy C+
1x14 TKO F
1x17 Legacies B+
1x22 Chrysalis A

Signs and Portents was infinitely more satisfying a second time. The first time, Morden seems sinister to a point that's over the top, and maybe he still is, but with all the future history I now have with the character, this episode becomes much greater.

Grail is a surprisingly good standalone episode, though the actor playing Jinxo isn't very good. David Warner is always a pleasure, though, even if he's playing a character who will ultimately serve little significance to the series as a whole.

Eyes is better than I remembered. I love the B-Plot with the motorcycle. Lennier and Garibaldi have a great relationship here, which I'm sad that won't be explored much further. The A-Plot is good, though the internal affairs officer is about as arch as they come--he even has the obligatory scar on his face. I like the continuity with Bester, too. And Jeff Combs is great, as usual. A shame his character (a decent telepath) didn't reappear.

A Voice in the Wilderness is a pretty good two part episode, though I do have some qualms. The cliffhanger is absolutely lame, a contrived moment of shock thrown in because every two-parter has to have a cliffhanger. And the moment when Sinclair and Ivanova seem to think the best way to avoid the laser net on the planet is by doing an insane rush--well, I've seem Captain Kirk come up with more logical solutions. The second part is good as well, though by the end, there's really no surprise that Draal is the one to go into the machine.

Babylon Squared is a brilliant episode--and that's not even considering War Without End. When I first saw the episode, I thought it was great. I still think the same. Andrew was most intrigued by the final moments with "The One." Speaking of signs and portents-- he was also intreuged when I let out a vocalization of understanding when Sinclair was given the vision of the station's destruction in Signs and Portents. The series builds upon itself a second time around. And speaking of which, but I was surprised to see the future Emperor of Centauri speaking with Londo in one of these episodes. Such a small part that will be so much more important later. Nice work.

The Quality of Mercy is a surprisingly good episode, though it's not entirely new material. I like it more now, knowing the machine will turn up again in at least two pivotal roles.

Legacies is another mostly good episode, though child actors make me groan.

Chrysalis is a great episode, with momentum that carried us into another episode (we had expected to leave the night with season one). So much here is wonderful. "Nothing is the same anymore," says Sinclair, repeating Ben's words in the pilot.

Points of Departure... Grade: B+
Sheridan is an interesting character, but here he's a little too green for my tastes. The reveal of the Battle of the Line is nice--though Andrew was more than a little interested when I mumbled that everything has yet to be revealed. In Valen's name indeed.

Wow, I've so much homework to do, not to mention a half dozen DVR'd episodes of other shows I've been ignoring. Season one, still not the greatest, but on second viewing, not as poor as I'd first evaluated it as. At least average, and in many cases, well above. What a great series to re-visit! :thumbsup:

And so much for a few words...

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

You know, the group project of watching Sleeping in the Light together really inspired me.

I've spent the better part of the last year CREEPING through season 3 - mostly watching while sitting in hotel rooms all over Europe and Japan while I was working overseas.

Each time, I resolved that when I got home, I'd start watching again, but somehow it never actually happened.

Well, since the other week, I've finished season 3 and started season 4. Only a couple of episodes a week...but at least I'm making progress.

And each time I watch, I am once again amazed at how much I REALLY love this show.

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Any time someone would like to have another group "viewing" of an episode, by all means start it right up. A moderator isn't required to coordinate it.

Hirogen Alpha said:
The Quality of Mercy is a surprisingly good episode, though it's not entirely new material. I like it more now, knowing the machine will turn up again in at least two pivotal roles.

They really tried to get a scene where Dr. Rosen and Lennier were on set at the same time. It'd have been wonderful to see "Maureen and Will Robinson" together one more time, don't you think? It's a shame that they couldn't work it out.

Legacies is another mostly good episode, though child actors make me groan.

Well, of course it's "mostly good". It has me in it.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
Got to love Neroon, Neroon.

I do have one question though, now that I think about it. In one or two of these episodes, they make explicit reference to the two classes of Minbari, Warrior and Religious. Did JMS come up with the idea of the Worker class later on, is this an error that cropped up, or am I misunderstanding the dialogue?

Oh, and TKO. Worst. Episode. Ever.

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

The concept of three or two Minbari castes, CAN be rationalized with Delenn's speech to Minbari society at the end of "Moments of Transition" (another great 'Roon ep, btw) in season 4. She tells everyone "You thought we had forgotten them, hadn't you?" or words to that effect. Although I dont' recall the first menion of there being THREE castes... one can say that generally everyone had forgotten about the Worker caste for some time.

That doesn't really answer your question, though. 'Fraid we'll have to rely on Jan for this one. I know JMS has referred to it in discussion before, but I don't recall what he said, specifically.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
Okay. I'll take a gander at the Lurker's Guide, but I hope Jan can answer my question(s) when she has a moment.

 

[Mal]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

PKTrekGirl said:
You know, the group project of watching Sleeping in the Light together really inspired me.

me too

first i re-watched the second half of Season 5, and it is amazing - no sublime - they just don't make TV like this any more

then i popped in a couple season 1 eps -
Deathwalker (not like us? you'll become us!);
Survivors (drunk again uncle Mike?)
Eyes (commencing interweb link )
Legacies (You talk like a Minbari, Commander. Perhaps there was some small wisdom in letting your species survive. )
Babylon Squared - this is still fucked up! i hate delenn's purple to red dress fuck up. did i mention it's fucked up?!?!?!?!
Chrysalis (nothing's the same anymore; you've forgotten something; and so it begins)

i can't say it enough - they just don't make shows like this anymore.

 

[Jan]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
I do have one question though, now that I think about it. In one or two of these episodes, they make explicit reference to the two classes of Minbari, Warrior and Religious. Did JMS come up with the idea of the Worker class later on, is this an error that cropped up, or am I misunderstanding the dialogue?

As I recall, the only mention of two castes of Minbari was in "Legacies" (where we first meet Neroon, of course).

It's been my belief that the three castes of Minbari was something that JMS decided on gradually. For instance, while there's mention of a warrior caste in the B5 bible, there's no mention of any religious or worker castes.

Reading the B5 bible, a couple of things catch my eye.

First, JMS states in it that, since it was their leader who was killed in the first encounter with the humans, only the Grey Council could order the surrender. As we know, later on the blame/credit for the surrender was transferred to the Religious Caste.

Second, it's also mentioned that the identities of the members of the Grey Council are kept secret, that they give up any individual identity in order to serve.

Those two items combined have led me to think that as time went on, some of the early attributes of the Grey Council went to inform the Religious Caste. All of which is strictly my opinion, not any kind of official position.

Jan

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

I'll have to consult my copy when I get home today. Still... I could have sworn there was some mention of the religious caste before that point in "Legacies". I was guessing in "Parliament of Dreams", but maybe not.

There is a bird whispering in the back of my mind of a point where "since it was the religious caste who issued the order to surrender...." but what episode woudl that have been?

 

[Jan]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Neroon said:
There is a bird whispering in the back of my mind of a point where "since it was the religious caste who issued the order to surrender...." but what episode woudl that have been?

Doesn't Shakiri say something to that effect in "Moments of Transition"? I'd have to check the script when I get home.

Jan

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Thanks, Jan. I had suspected that the idea of a religious caste grew out of an organic process. Still, with that season four episode mentioned, I think it all still fits together rather nicely.

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Jan said:
Doesn't Shakiri say something to that effect in "Moments of Transition"? I'd have to check the script when I get home.

Jan

That's possible..... however, I'd recommend checking the DVDs instead of the scripts, given the variations we've seen so far.

 

[Jan]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Neroon said:
That's possible..... however, I'd recommend checking the DVDs instead of the scripts, given the variations we've seen so far.

Good point. I did check the DVD and this part is the same as the script (which is much easier to transcribe from!):

(Act One in Shakiri's quarters)

The loss of a few lives now will save us many more lives in the future. Remember, it was the religios caste that got us into the war with the humans...then after many of our caste died fighting it, it was they who just...stopped.

There's a small bit in the script that was cut from the episode right after the above line where Shakiri says that the religious caste should never have asked the warriors to fight if they didn't have the courage to pursue the war to its conclusion.

I like the scripts...have I mentioned that lately?

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Good work... now your next assignment Shai Alyt Jan, is to find any quotes from The Great Maker where he references the 2 or 3 caste Minbari system.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

I haven't had a chance to watch any more episodes yet (later this week and this weekend), but I do have another Babylon 5 related question, and this is probably the best place of any to ask it.

Since several of Christopher Franke's original B5 scores are available so cheap used (less than $5 each), I've recently bought several. There are some that I like more than others--The Face of the Enemy, for example, gets played a lot.

So far, I have:
Severed Dreams
Walkabout
Za'ha'dum
No Surrender, No Retreat
The Face of the Enemy
In the Beginning
Lines of Communication
The Coming of Shadows

I've been meaning to pick up Sleeping in Light, but haven't found it for that cheap. Besides that score, are there any others that are especially worth getting?