New TOS - Should we?

[BillJ]

Understood that you prefer the kelvinverse, but do you think it's more like TOS than STC or STNV are?

The characters are. The universe and tech are different to a degree. Continues and New Voyages/Phase II are big dollar dress up. It is painfully obvious that they do nothing to make the characters their own, they basically try to mimic the actors from TOS.

 

[fireproof78]

Here's the question, for both if you. Understood that you prefer the kelvinverse, but do you think it's more like TOS than STC or STNV are?

Yes, I do. It has a 20th century flavor to it but the characters very much feel like TOS at their core.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Do you mean a 21st century flavor?

 

[ChallengerHK]

I'm guessing it's obvious that I disagree with both of you. That said, I'm glad you can enjoy the kelvinverse. I thi k its occasionally funny but aside from the casual coincidence of character names it has nothing whatsoever to do with TOS.

 

[BillJ]

I'm guessing it's obvious that I disagree with both of you. That said, I'm glad you can enjoy the kelvinverse. I thi k its occasionally funny but aside from the casual coincidence of character names it has nothing whatsoever to do with TOS.

I know it has nothing to do with TOS. It is “Star Trek” through a 21st century lens by 21st century creators. Even the folks who are still alive would have trouble making TOS now, they are fifty-plus years older and have had many experiences during that time that they didn’t during their time on that show. We all know how different 1987 Roddenberry was from the 1964 version.

Putting fifth-rate actors on recreated TOS sets doesn’t make the fan films TOS either.

 

[Henoch]

Both are better than TAS.

 

[Norsehound]

What I don't understand is why a TOS production has to follow the Enterprise.

A few fan continuations have been referenced, but I don't see why a big-budget effort has to go out of its way to define a new era of Trek. TNG had DS9 and Voyager running almost concurrently in that era... so why not a new crew, new ship, set concurrently with the TOS period? Get clever in your avoidance of the Enterprise, or do what Discovery does and recast for one or two guest appearances?

I'd wager part of the reason folks are clamoring for a Pike show is to return to that look, feel, and direction that TOS and only TOS has. Mount's performance captured a bit of that as Pike, and the neo-Enterprise we see in Discovery is satisfactory enough of a revision of the original bridge to go with. So, why not?

I'd love to see a show set parallel to TOS or the early TMP movies. I'm not holding my breath though, since it seems the showrunners are going out of their way to avoid those periods.

 

[BillJ]

What I don't understand is why a TOS production has to follow the Enterprise.

I’m still waiting for a full blown reboot.

 

[Norsehound]

I’m still waiting for a full blown reboot.

The Kelvin universe wasn't enough? I think it fits the reboot definition pretty well.

 

[BillJ]

The Kelvin universe wasn't enough?

No.

 

[fireproof78]

Do you mean a 21st century flavor?

Yes. Oops.

I'm guessing it's obvious that I disagree with both of you. That said, I'm glad you can enjoy the kelvinverse. I thi k its occasionally funny but aside from the casual coincidence of character names it has nothing whatsoever to do with TOS.

It depends on how one views TOS. For me, TOS is an action/adventure platform with social commentary woven in with optimism at its core. Kelvin Trek fits that very, very well for me, again, filtered through a 21st-century lens.

Secondly, for me, Kelvin Trek is experienced best with a full understanding of the TOS characters. The prime example is the whole exchange between Prime Spock and Kelvin Kirk in the cave on Delta Vega. The pain that Kirk feels at not knowing his father, what might have been, is brief but palpable. The only way that scene carries impact is with the TOS connection.

Finally, my knowing TOS characters deepen my connection with their Kelvin counterparts. They are engaging in their own rights, but I find them more enjoyable because of the TOS connections.

That perhaps is not sufficient, but I am not sure how else to express it.

The Kelvin universe wasn't enough? I think it fits the reboot definition pretty well.

Not by a long shot.

 

[Norsehound]

Not by a long shot.

Why?

Same ship, same crew, redesigned vessel, recasted crew. Same plot premise of a crew in a starship going on adventures in service of the federation. New directions within the same premise to explore alternative takes on what could have been.

What more does a reboot need that the Kelvinverse does not accomplish? Genderswapping? Flipping the name of the ship? Adding/subtracting/merging of characters? Changing the genre from space adventure to space horror or somesuch? Really, I'm curious. The Kelvinverse re-starting the universe from the original premise (with help from the original universe) feels very much like a reboot to me.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Kelvin universe wasn't enough? I think it fits the reboot definition pretty well.

Although I loved the Kelvin-verse, it was still tied into the 1960's vision of Trek, with all it's silliness and outdated tropes. A true reboot would really reimagine things from the ground-up for the 21st century.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Although I loved the Kelvin-verse, it was still tied into the 1960's vision of Trek, with all it's silliness and outdated tropes. A true reboot would really reimagine things from the ground-up for the 21st century.

It really sounds like you're arguing my points in the last few posts, and then going farther with them, i.e., a true reboot would use the name, and the idea of space exploration as a backdrop, and then go on to be its own thing, avoiding everything that made Star Trek Star Trek. If I were a director, or an actor, I'd want to just do my own thing instead of writing or directing something that wasn't Star Trek and then slapping the name on it.

Putting fifth-rate actors on recreated TOS sets doesn’t make the fan films TOS either.

No, but it makes it much, much closer than the Kelvinverse is capable of being, precisely because the Kelvinverse is trying as hard as it can to not be TOS.

 

[BillJ]

No, but it makes it much, much closer than the Kelvinverse is capable of being, precisely because the Kelvinverse is trying as hard as it can to not be TOS.

This would be a dull place if we all saw things the same way.

 

[1001001]

No, but it makes it much, much closer than the Kelvinverse is capable of being, precisely because the Kelvinverse is trying as hard as it can to not be TOS.

I think Star Trek: Beyond is the most TOS-y thing since Undiscovered Country.

 

[fireproof78]

Why?

Same ship, same crew, redesigned vessel, recasted crew. Same plot premise of a crew in a starship going on adventures in service of the federation. New directions within the same premise to explore alternative takes on what could have been.

What more does a reboot need that the Kelvinverse does not accomplish? Genderswapping? Flipping the name of the ship? Adding/subtracting/merging of characters? Changing the genre from space adventure to space horror or somesuch? Really, I'm curious. The Kelvinverse re-starting the universe from the original premise (with help from the original universe) feels very much like a reboot to me.

Because even Kelvin Trek is tied directly to TOS in some way, as evidenced by my discussion regarding knowing the TOS characters deepens my understanding of Kelvin characters and vice versa. There are connections of continuity (Archer in particular) as well expectations of technology behaving a similar way (see all the complaints regarding transwarp beaming).

A full reboot could take the base premise (space exploration action/adventure with optimistic lens) and start its own history and its own technological development. It would not be beholden to specific events, limits of technology, as well as be able to look forward based upon current events, much like TOS did.

No, but it makes it much, much closer than the Kelvinverse is capable of being, precisely because the Kelvinverse is trying as hard as it can to not be TOS.

STC has a 60s lens on Star Trek, like Kelvinverse has a 21st century lens. The base concepts though are very much the same.

 

[Norsehound]

A full reboot could take the base premise (space exploration action/adventure with optimistic lens) and start its own history and its own technological development. It would not be beholden to specific events, limits of technology, as well as be able to look forward based upon current events, much like TOS did.

You run the risk of a reboot becoming nothing like the original, though, which is what happened to Battlestar Galactica. There's a point where you change so much that it might as well be its own show.

Wouldn't The Orville and Galaxy Quest fit your premise? Or even TNG compared to TOS (as early seasons, with the exception of The Naked Now, seem to go out of their way to ignore TOS?)

 

[ChallengerHK]

This would be a dull place if we all saw things the same way.

Very true

 

[ChallengerHK]

I think Star Trek: Beyond is the most TOS-y thing since Undiscovered Country.

Funny, but I was just telling someone that I thought that TFF, for all its faults, was the most TOS-ish of the films.