New to B5 (a couple of questions on Vorlons)

[DS9Continuing]

Hmmm... the word "rosebud" means something very different to me.

 

[Lindley]

That particular one is rather easy to pick up on, at least in part, due to B^2.

 

[Neroon]

Well that name is only referred to in passing for most of the series and as I recall it wasn't until "Passing Through Gethsemane" that we found out roughly what he was about. To someone new coming into the series and starting with "The Gathering" that reference would be meaningless the first time round.

That isn't my point. To my way of thinking, that line, spoken at that point in the series mutes much of the power of the revelation at the end of "War Without End, II". You keep hearing references to Valen in rather hushed tones prior to that point. To hear Kosh speak the name in the context of allegedly meeting Sinclair drops too big of a hint, far too early in the story, imho.

JMS often put HUGE hints right up in plain sight, but with out any context with which to determine their significance until much later.

I'm not saying that the practice is devoid of value. As I often like to say jms has forgotten more about making a story than the rest of us will probably ever know. The problem for me is the huge impact that revelation brings in "WWE II". It still works with the line added to "The Gathering", but I don't feel it is nearly as effective.

For example...

Spoiler: War Without End

When Draal calls out for Zathras in "The Long, Twilight Struggle"

I don't follow, which ought not to surprise too many folks. The way I see it,

Spoiler: in reference to WWE

we've already met Zathras in "Babylon Squared" as has been mentioned here in this thread. Draal's shouting out his name in "The Long, Twilight Struggle" smooths things out somewhat, but I don't find it on the order of "Entil'zha Valen".

 

[Reverend]

It's not so much that we'd met him already so much as the connection implied by the mention of his name that drops out of the blue.
As for "The Gathering" I don't think we can rightly judge the impact of those two words in hindsight. Better to find someone who saw the Special Edition then went and watched the series for the first time and see if they even picked up on it. Honestly, I doubt it. Even if they did the context doesn't immediately make the true significance of the words apparent.

 

[Neroon]

I understand that reasoning, and it would be interesting. But look at it from the perspective of someone who saw it in the original format. At what point did you connect Sinclair with Valen? I know I hadn't at all until Marcus put 2-and-2 together.

 

[Caleuche]

*Sigh*
One of the great things with having one guy in charge of a series like JMS whose word is canon is that it solves a lot of mysteries.
One of the sad things with having one guy in charge of a series like JMS whose word is canon is that it solves a lot of mysteries!

As JMS himself said, "It's not a plot hole, it's a plot point." Kosh got poisoned because he came out of his encounter suit. He presented himself to Sinclair in his (sorta) real form, because he "knew" Sinclair pretty closely already and trusted him, and wanted to honour him. Unfortunately that also gave a sneaky Minbari renegade with a changeling net the perfect opportunity. Benefits of inside knowledge.

How could he be sure that Kosh was going to be in the mood to shake appendages? Given how fussy the Vorlons are over leaving their encounter suits, theres always the chance Kosh may have decided to be respectful to the sacred one with a long Minbari style bow in which case what would assassin boy do with the skin-tab?
"Ha! Its over your eye apparture mate! Over your eye!"

Oh and if the Vorlons are physical beings then how do they...

Spoiler: Season 4 spoiler

travel around inside Sheridans and Lytas heads?

 

[DS9Continuing]

"Vorlons have the ability to break off pieces of their consciousness and invest them in other creatures."

So it's not the entirety of Kosh in there, just a kind of heavy psychic connection.

 

[Harvey]

As somebody who saw the special edition of The Gathering first, and then saw the series proper, I did not pick up on what Kosh says in the updated pilot. Honestly, the dialogue is mixed in such a way that it's almost impossible to hear what is said at all, and then the name has no significance until far later into the series.

It's a nice bit that adds to later viewings, but it didn't subtract at all to my first viewing.

 

[Reverend]

Thank you Harvey.

Of course it's not impossible for an especially astute person with a photographic memory to deduce the connection before they should. However, that's the risk you take in any mystery story, provided the writers plays fair with the audience. As I recall JMS cut his teeth as a writer on murder she wrote, so I assume that sort of thinking is second nature. After all, what's the point of watching or reading a mystery story when the writer is going to intentionally jerk you around and drop the final revelation totally out of the blue with no lead ups at all.

Case in point...

Spoiler: War Without End

In the montage we see during his trip back there are several other clues revealed that were dropped in the first season, just out of context. The most significant being Neroon's comment "You talk like a Minbari Commander", since the truth is quite the opposite. It's the Minbari that talk like Sinclair since he's had/will have a profound impact on their culture.

 

[Jim Steele]

Which leaves me a bit confused as to what Vorlons really are.

Gooood.

 

[Neroon]

To each their own. I simply felt more impact with the original structure.

 

[Reverend]

I do see your point and I happen to agree that the reference seamed a bit much. However since we'd both already seen the original cut and (I assume in your case) the whole series that our opinions on the matter are understandable biased. Hence me seeking the opinion of a fresh pair of eyes.

 

[JoeD80]

I wandered away from my usual B5 forum looking for stuff on Enterprise actually, but since I found this B5 thread I thought I'd add my thoughts:

(especially given poor Delenn's make-up

Just a short point -- Delenn's makeup was so severe in the pilot because she was going to be portrayed as male early on, but the technology to alter the actress's voice didn't really work the way they wanted, so the makeup was changed for the series to be less androgynous.

Are [the Vorlons] physical creatures or beings of light? Or both? Perhaps interchangeably, can they switch between their original form and their non corporeal form, perhaps?

Physical creatures. jms said right around season 4

Spoiler: Falling Toward Apotheosis

when you see a Vorlon in its true form:

Yes, that's a Vorlon...and there was a phyiscality to them, shown by the fact that it could strike out and hit things. It's not a ghost or anything of that nature, it can be hurt and killed.

and possibly what Dr Kyle "saw" and his readings were all just telepathic manipulation, much as Kosh telepathically manipulates the persons in the garden in to seeing what he wanted them to see when he left his suit.

Certainly what Dr. Kyle saw was similar to what Sheridan saw in "The Fall of Night"

Additionally, was Del Varner supposedly in league with the Shadows?

Del Varner was killed pretty early on in the pilot. Pretty sure he was just a tech runner that G'Kar was trying to get the changeling net from.

 

[JoeD80]

The nature of the Vorlons gives away too much about where the plot is going.

I'm not sure what this means exactly. No one knows anything about the Vorlons in season one. What major arcs exist for Kosh there? Involving himself in the Deathwalker incident. Wandering around muttering stuff like "It's too late for the pebbles to vote" and "Good." This hardly gives much of the plot away. Even in "Chrysalis" you only *hear* what Kosh might look like. You don't see what the Vorlons want you to see until the end of season *two* and even then, it's not the entire picture. Sheridan pretty much telling the Vorlons that they're full of !#@$ in season 3 is a great and unexpected scene in "Interludes and Examinations," and when Sheridan decides in season four that he needs to

Spoiler: Falling Toward Apotheosis

kill the Vorlon ambassador

it's hardly what I would have predicted from the early episodes.

 

[Neroon]

Good to have new Babyloniacs around these parts, JoeD80.

If you're interested in B5 discussions, we have some good ones going on. You can hone in on them by going to the bottom of the main page and clicking on the tag "babylon5". That will bring up a list of B5-related topics for you, going back through June I think.

Or you can bookmark the following link: Link

 

[Reverend]

It is actually a bit weird. B5 has been a dead topic (more or less) for years and now suddenly it's like there's a new thread every other day. Someone go tell Joe we still care!

 

[Harvey]

It is actually a bit weird. B5 has been a dead topic (more or less) for years and now suddenly it's like there's a new thread every other day. Someone go tell Joe we still care!

Murphy's Law. Straczynski effectively ends any possibility of future filmed Babylon 5 and it suddenly spikes in popularity. Oh...sad.

 

[Neroon]

Happens every time we get people new to the hsow, whether they become fans or not. Established Babyloniacs feel a sort of new verve in their magnificent obsession, once again exploring beyond the Rim.....