new Shogun adaptation coming...

gloriously gorey finale... Kaboom & splatter - their fault for wanting be in first row up close I guess /s ;)
Liked how Mariko and the Englishman talked about the different cultures at the hot spring and the porch and at the rocks (baby earthquake)

Otherwise kind of a meh episode, with the "wanna be gangster/warrior/lord kids" as one of focal parts.

Toranaga's kid, unknowingly played by the "in charge of village" kid and his father (who was betraying Toranaga before), not only accelerated a war between the lords, but probably also his own death. Whether is by the hand (or canon) we'll see, but plenty of candidate,s aside from the obvious other lords and their soldiers - village kid, village kid's father, his own father...

Anyway what did the Englishman actually eat that made the ladies be surprised and chuckle?

Also, did Mariko tell the Englishmen she "pillowing" with him was a gift from his/a consort?
I mean it was her right?

Is the handy with a gun, sword gifting consort Marikos niece? like WTF

Apologies for any family tree and clan/lord-belonging confusions. I'm not used to such things.
 
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gloriously gorey finale... Kaboom & splatter - their fault for wanting be in first row up close I guess /s ;)
Liked how Mariko and the Englishman talked about the different cultures at the hot spring and the porch and at the rocks (baby earthquake)

Otherwise kind of a meh episode, with the "wanna be gangster/warrior/lord kids" as one of focal parts.

Toranaga's kid, unknowingly played by the "in charge of village" kid and his father (who was betraying Toranaga before), not only accelerated a war between the lords, but probably also his own death. Whether is by the hand (or canon) we'll see, but plenty of candidate,s aside from the obvious other lords and their soldiers - village kid, village kid's father, his own father...

Anyway what did the Englishman actually eat that made the ladies be surprised and chuckle?

Also, did Mariko tell the Englishmen she "pillowing" with him was a gift from his/a consort?
I mean it was her right?

Is the handy with a gun, sword gifting consort Marikos niece? like WTF

Apologies for any family tree and clan/lord-belonging confusions. I'm not used to such things.

In the book Mariko's husband is still alive at this point. There's even a reconciliation plotline between them. He's a much bigger player. I believe in the book it's a "maid" she claims visited him in the night to preserve plausible deniability.
 
In the book Mariko's husband is still alive at this point. There's even a reconciliation plotline between them. He's a much bigger player. I believe in the book it's a "maid" she claims visited him in the night to preserve plausible deniability.

Correct. I wondered about this last episode- you never even saw her husband until much later in the story as written, and also according to the original miniseries.
 
Correct. I wondered about this last episode- you never even saw her husband until much later in the story as written, and also according to the original miniseries.

My guess is its to make them more sympathetic and avoid the whole adultery on her part angle, while simplifying the story.
 
Really enjoying this show so far. Those "explosions" at the end of Episode 3. :eek:
 
I want to know that too!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nattō

Doesn't sound too appealing but then again i wasn't raised in Japan and some of the things i eat may also not be appealing to them.

Such a wonderful episode and a bit of a slowdown after the tense third episode. It is good though to develop the characters and their relation and i just adored the talk between Blackthorne and Mariko at the hot springs when they both opened up to each other.

Hard for me to find words without spoiling things since i read the book and know the first show inside out - so much goodness yet to come :techman:
 
Did a rewatch of the '81 Shogun miniseries this week for comparison purposes. It still holds up very, very well. The pacing is so much slower, partly because that was the way they did things back and partly because there was much less commercial time per hour. It'll be fun going forward to see how the new one pairs up with the old now that I'm refreshed on it.

One thing that really jumped out on this viewing was the actor who played Venck, the Dutch crewman who fried a brain circuit on the beach after the Erasmus burned, went lunatic, and presumably died of stroke or aneurysm. That performance was something else, and again, with the pacing, it was really given room to breathe. You probably won't see a death scene anything like that on modern TV again, going forward.

Richard Chamberlain was really king of the miniseries back in those days. I got a chuckle out of the scene when he got really offended when Mariko asked if he was a homosexual. Good acting on his part, since we all later learned that Chamberlain is actually gay.

I read this week that Yoko Shimada, the actress who played Mariko in the '81 version, died almost destitute a couple of years ago, and had no family members come forward to claim her body. She was cremated by the local government as a public service, and apparently this is something that is becoming more and more common in Japan as the inverted age pyramid continues to worsen and people are struggling financially. That country has serious problems these days.

Anyway, looking forward to Tuesday and more of the new version.
 
Did a rewatch of the '81 Shogun miniseries this week for comparison purposes. It still holds up very, very well. The pacing is so much slower, partly because that was the way they did things back and partly because there was much less commercial time per hour. It'll be fun going forward to see how the new one pairs up with the old now that I'm refreshed on it.
Unfortunately it doesn’t seem to be streaming on this side of the Atlantic anywhere, or I would’ve done likewise.

Richard Chamberlain was really king of the miniseries back in those days.
He really was. This, the original Bourne Identity and, probably biggest in terms of viewership (in the U.K. and Ireland anyway) The Thorn Birds. Legend has it that the British national grid had a discernible surge 2 minutes after the final episode aired, as housewives and mums all put on the kettle to digest the ending.
 
Did a rewatch of the '81 Shogun miniseries this week for comparison purposes. It still holds up very, very well. The pacing is so much slower, partly because that was the way they did things back and partly because there was much less commercial time per hour. It'll be fun going forward to see how the new one pairs up with the old now that I'm refreshed on it.

One thing that really jumped out on this viewing was the actor who played Venck, the Dutch crewman who fried a brain circuit on the beach after the Erasmus burned, went lunatic, and presumably died of stroke or aneurysm. That performance was something else, and again, with the pacing, it was really given room to breathe. You probably won't see a death scene anything like that on modern TV again, going forward.

Richard Chamberlain was really king of the miniseries back in those days. I got a chuckle out of the scene when he got really offended when Mariko asked if he was a homosexual. Good acting on his part, since we all later learned that Chamberlain is actually gay.

I read this week that Yoko Shimada, the actress who played Mariko in the '81 version, died almost destitute a couple of years ago, and had no family members come forward to claim her body. She was cremated by the local government as a public service, and apparently this is something that is becoming more and more common in Japan as the inverted age pyramid continues to worsen and people are struggling financially. That country has serious problems these days.

Anyway, looking forward to Tuesday and more of the new version.

I know it's an older book and show but still - spoilercode future events for people who are new to this and only know the new show.

5th episode was as always amazing. Given movie and TV trope "If you don't see the body they're not dead" it was clear that Buntaro would return. If you have eagle eyes it was also spoiled in the show trailers with the scene of him firing an arrow past Mariko because you can see him for a split second.

It was amazing to see Blackthorne finally learning about japanese culture, especially Samura culture, where the only punishment for a big transgression is death. Too bad the gardener had to die to teach him that lesson but Blackthorne will now be much more careful what he does. Also too bad he still doesn't understand japanese politics and believes he'll be able to leave once he fulfilled his agreement with Toranaga :lol:

One thing i can say is that this show goes far more into depth with the characters, it's almost like a director's cut of the 80s show ( which i love) and the production values given modern SFX technology gives it a far greater scope.
 
holy m... :eek: - what an episode

holy mudslide/earthquake - what an episode... I got to start with that.

Toranaga
They shows writers got me with Toranaga getting swept away/falling down - and I was like, no way they would kill that central character...to well f*ck, they might do the unthinkable, even as Blackthorne, Toranaga's dumbass kid and his closest bodyguards? started to dig him up... when Mariko arrived too.

Couldn't stop laughing when Blackthorne offered him - they what we now know "worthless" Katanas.
Does Toranaga know or does only Mariko?

Clever move by Toranago to make Omi the cannon leader, so his Uncle Yabushige might hesitate to attack once he eventually turns traitor.
I bet Toranaga still is a couple of chess moves and just used Yabushige as pawn.
He seems kind of to be the comic relief...


Buntaro
So Buntaro, outmaned by an army, got some convenient ronin support, who conveniently all bit the dust during his miraculous escape, except one... Yeah, I don't buy it. I bet he's involved with some other Lord or even some shadow lady's scheming.
The only good thing about Buntaro the abusive wife beater, still being alive is - that hopefully and fingers crossed - Mariko will end his life, when she takes her life (and revenge) in her own hands... (hope it's not just wishful thinking)


Blackthorne
Why did he persist with the bird (ironically the one Toranaga said was the pawn or whatever), what was he trying to achieve in the first place, just having a laugh? making sure it ages and makes good stinky British stew?

Fuji made Buntaro more mad than usual, by implying Mariko and Blackthorne might pillow together?!
the dumbass d*ck measuring, sake fueled contest between him and Buntaro and poor Mariko... just WTF all around.


the Gardener
utter terrible outcome for the poor gardener, it was him who said the stone thing to him I assume, which Blackthorn in the end "built up" again. Not only dead, but conveniently also made a spy... wonder if it will have an impact that he was Blackthorns gardener specifically...

Mariko
Damn, that's a terrible family story from Mariko.
Heh, she admitted the pillowing to Blackthorne I think when she said something along the lines "from now on only from others lips/words"
Really hope she takes her life and her revenge in her own hands, against Buntaro, those that were responsible for her familiy's death.

Fuji
I'm not sure she's greatful or what at the end where Blackthorne comes back and why did she actively put him in harms way with Buntaro?

the box lady trying to rule over the lords
Is she the one that pillowed with Oni or his uncle (don't remember) in the last episode to suggest to play Toranaga's kid, so that he uses the cannons to start a war?
 
Great episode. Obviously, the with the bigger budget and modern FX, the earthquake scene was a 'HOLY SHIT' moment. Talk about seeing the Earth move!

A couple plot lines were very cleverly compressed here. I think it was an artful adaptation of the book for time constraints, and it worked really well. A couple things the older show let breathe a bit more were Blackthorne's interactions with the gardner, so what happened there had more impact. Fuji-san was made 'adorable' in the original, and you only got the bare basics of her backstory. The depiction here is much more in depth, and I feel, probably a lot more true-to-life. You can see she isn't happy with her situation, and there is no budding fondness between she and Anjin-san.

Overall, the characterizations in this version are a lot more 'real' than I felt they were in the 80's version. That one overplayed the 'eight walls and three hearts' thing, I think, and it made most of the characters very wooden and emotionless. The one thing I'm having trouble with here is Kasigi Yabu. I feel that he would be a lot less 'expressive' and ass-kissy, especially since he IS playing both sides and knows Toranaga as a spy in his camp. A more stoic, unreadable Yabu would be more correct, I think.

I've really enjoyed Hiroyuke Sanada in everything I've seen him in, starting with The Last Samurai. His performance in this show is beyond exemplary. If he doesn't get some MAJOR recognition and awards for this, there is no justice.
 
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holy m... :eek: - what an episode

My replies are embedded in under the spoiler curtain.

Couldn't stop laughing when Blackthorne offered him - they what we now know "worthless" Katanas.
Does Toranaga know or does only Mariko?

It doesn't matter if Toranaga knows. The swords aren't themselves worthless, only the life and honor of Fuji's father. The importance was the gesture of the gift by Blackthorne. He understands the cultural significance of Toranaga missing his swords, and offers his own as would any Hatamoto. In that moment they aren't Fuji's swords, they are Blackthorne's. It gives Toranaga face and allows him to appear strong before his retainers in the wake of the earthquake.

Clever move by Toranago to make Omi the cannon leader, so his Uncle Yabushige might hesitate to attack once he eventually turns traitor.
I bet Toranaga still is a couple of chess moves and just used Yabushige as pawn.
He seems kind of to be the comic relief...

Yes and no. As Yabu's Daimyo and overlord, Toranaga could order him to commit seppuku on any pretense. Not that there wouldn't be consequences, but he could do it if he felt Yabu was an immediate threat. However, in the book at this point, I don't recall Toranaga having any reason to suspect him of treachery, only that he bore watching.


So Buntaro, outmaned by an army, got some convenient ronin support, who conveniently all bit the dust during his miraculous escape, except one... Yeah, I don't buy it. I bet he's involved with some other Lord or even some shadow lady's scheming.
The only good thing about Buntaro the abusive wife beater, still being alive is - that hopefully and fingers crossed - Mariko will end his life, when she takes her life (and revenge) in her own hands... (hope it's not just wishful thinking)

Interesting that you think this. Obviously this show is your first exposure to this story. I won't spoil anything for you, but just say that most of Buntaro's storyline is an addon to the book.

Blackthorne
Why did he persist with the bird (ironically the one Toranaga said was the pawn or whatever), what was he trying to achieve in the first place, just having a laugh? making sure it ages and makes good stinky British stew?

He was simply hanging the bird to age the meat. He didn't realize he was making the whole village nauseous. They overplayed his instructions a bit here- in the book, there was no threat of death from Blackthorne, he simply said that nobody was to touch the bird but him. That made the impact of what happened later a little more jarring, and his realization that in feudal Japan, words, duty, and caste can be traps, prisons, or tools. For the samurai, the concept of duty itself can be weaponized. You'll see later how well he learns this lesson.

Fuji made Buntaro more mad than usual, by implying Mariko and Blackthorne might pillow together?!
the dumbass d*ck measuring, sake fueled contest between him and Buntaro and poor Mariko... just WTF all around.

Fuji was not implying Mariko slept with Blackthorne, only confirming (and saving her own face in his eyes) by stating that he had not pillowed with her. Fuji knows that to out Mariko (if she even knows what actually happened) would mean her death. The dinner party scene was handled much more roughly here than in the original miniseries or the book.

the Gardener
utter terrible outcome for the poor gardener, it was him who said the stone thing to him I assume, which Blackthorn in the end "built up" again. Not only dead, but conveniently also made a spy... wonder if it will have an impact that he was Blackthorns gardener specifically...

The fate of the gardener was only terrible by western standards. By Japanese standards, the gardener died a noble and honorable death. It was a 'blink and you missed it' moment, but they alluded to the fact (the book more so) that the old gardener was sick and in pain. He was facing a lingering death soon anyway. The opportunity to remove the offensive pheasant was a duty that had to be performed by someone, and benefited the village in general. His death was relatively quick and painless compared to what he was facing, and he obtained great face and honor with his people by volunteering. It is an alien concept to us, and abhorent, but by the standards of the time and culture it was an excellent death.

Damn, that's a terrible family story from Mariko.
Heh, she admitted the pillowing to Blackthorne I think when she said something along the lines "from now on only from others lips/words"

She admitted nothing. All she said was that she would only be speaking to him on official business going forward.

I'm not sure she's greatful or what at the end where Blackthorne comes back and why did she actively put him in harms way with Buntaro?

She never put him in harm's way with Buntaro. From her perspective, she's simply caught in a hellish situation with no way out. Fuji's situation exemplifies how duty can be a prison.

the box lady trying to rule over the lords
Is she the one that pillowed with Oni or his uncle (don't remember) in the last episode to suggest to play Toranaga's kid, so that he uses the cannons to start a war?

No. You are mistaking the Geisha Kiko for Lady Ochiba.

You are obviously getting into this series enough that you would probably really enjoy the novel. I highly recommend it. I read it for the first time in high school or college, and it would be fair to say that the novel plus the original miniseries were what really sparked my interest in Japanese history, language, and culture. Clavell is a master storyteller.
 
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arigatou @Jedi Marso for your detailed (and patient) answers, excellent background/cultural explanations and your recommendations.


some thoughts and one follow up question are embedded in under the spoiler curtain.



the gardener

If the gardener was near death anyway, old age apart, it certainly makes more sense.
Still brutal, but at least I can relate better from his point of view on why he did it.
Initially I also thought he was killed and not that he sacrificed himself.

as for the honorable death... I will never be on team "honor", but I am totally fine if a person wants to go out her own way, they can do so in way that they see as humane, provided they do not harm others.


Buntaro
sigh, does that mean, there won't be a physical revenge from Mariko on Buntaro? (I'm fine if I get spoiler for this particular question with a Yes or No)
I mean Buntaro is an excellent fighter, but all except one ally dies during his escape, him surviving against the odds, for me that's just suspicious.
Maybe I want too much backstabbing/drama lol
 
arigatou @Jedi Marso for your detailed (and patient) answers, excellent background/cultural explanations and your recommendations.


some thoughts and one follow up question are embedded in under the spoiler curtain.


Buntaro
sigh, does that mean, there won't be a physical revenge from Mariko on Buntaro? (I'm fine if I get spoiler for this particular question with a Yes or No)
I mean Buntaro is an excellent fighter, but all except one ally dies during his escape, him surviving against the odds, for me that's just suspicious.
Maybe I want too much backstabbing/drama lol

No, except that she engages in a subtle form of revenge every day, by refusing to willingly give herself to him, or show him love or even hate. All he gets is what he merits in her eyes: the strict obedience she is duty-bound to give. Does she 'kick his ass' or anything like that? No.
 
A calm but nonetheless brilliant episode.

I loved the subtle humor in it ( "maybe he talks when he pillows") or the entire price negotiation :lol: but the highpoint was the scene between Blackthorne and Mariko in the Tea House - so much pain and longing between them it made me sad.

On the political side of the side it seems Toranaga doesn't have to do too much to throw a wrench into the council, they are doing it themselves. Still, the show is heating up now and will boil over soon enough.
 
A calm but nonetheless brilliant episode.

I loved the subtle humor in it ( "maybe he talks when he pillows") or the entire price negotiation :lol: but the highpoint was the scene between Blackthorne and Mariko in the Tea House - so much pain and longing between them it made me sad.

On the political side of the side it seems Toranaga doesn't have to do too much to throw a wrench into the council, they are doing it themselves. Still, the show is heating up now and will boil over soon enough.

You're getting the eps waaaay earlier than me. It doesn't come on here until 11:00 PM on Tuesday nights, so I usually don't see it until Wed morning. Are you across the pond or on the other side of the date line?

EDIT: Actually just saw you are in Germany. That explains it.
 
Love how the tension rises for every episode.
I am so used to watching Animé, that I did even notice that almost no English was spoken this time.
 
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Love how the tension rises for every episode.
I am so used to watching Animé, that I did even notice that almost no English was spoken in this time.

Even having read this post before watching EP6, I was so engrossed that I still didn't didn't notice.

Once again, this episode served to 'look back' at points in flashback and flesh out the character of Lady Ochiba far more than the novel ever did, IIRC. Full disclosure, I've been enjoying this show so much that I've just started a re-read of the novel, but I'm not even to the point where Kasigi Yabu (Yabushige in this version) boils a member of the crew.

I also find it interesting that this episode somewhat presages the remainder of Mariko's storyline. Not going to spoil any of that, but Toranaga's implication that her father arranged her to survive in order to 'finish his fight' is a major deal whether anyone realizes it or not. Given Lady Ochiba's claims about Toranaga's motives, it begs the question of how much of Mariko's eventual storyline was intended by her father, or was it engineered by the master strategist Toranaga himself? As a viewer, it may be one of those 'you have to decide for yourself' kind of things.

One thing in the preview for next week that sort of made me roll my eyes:

Buntaro drawing his sword on Blackthorne. IIRC the only real time the two were together or had any significant interaction at all was the dinner at Blackthorne's house. Seems like some manufactured drama here because this version is downplaying the relationship between Mariko and Blackthorne. Whatevah!

Massively enjoying this version. I really hope they eventually release it on physical media--it will be a Day-1 buy for me.
 
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Also, is there anyone on the boards who speaks fluent Japanese and can speak to either the inflection, or 'accent' being used on the show? I admit that the very little bit of Japanese I know sounds really off coming out of the character's mouths. I know that men and women speak with different tone and inflection, but it's happening with particularly with Toranaga and Mariko. When they say something even as simple as "I understand" (Wakarimasu), I'm having to really strain my ears to catch the root verb the way they say it. Anyone else experiencing this?
 
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