Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

[TheAlmanac]

"Tiered canon" is a fancy way of saying "not canon." Star Wars fans have always assumed that their tie-ins were canonical, but that never passed the smell test.

I can sense the frustration at this triumph of marketing over practice, but I'm somewhat sympathetic to Lucasfilm's motivation in encouraging this assumption.

The tiered-canon concept for the Star Wars franchise was codified in the early Nineties, when there was zero filmed Star Wars content but an abundance of filmed Star Trek content--any given year from 1993 to 1999 featured more live-action Star Trek than has ever been produced for the Star Wars franchise, an imbalance that has continued to be true overall, so Lucasfilm has a vested interest in its audience believing that the content released more often "counts" in an atypical way and thus imposed consistency amongst that content (as mentioned earlier) to an extent that's also atypical (then and now).

And it worked, but the reason for wanting that perception to work arises from different priorities at the corporate level.

 

[Yistaan]

I can sense the frustration at this triumph of marketing over practice, but I'm somewhat sympathetic to Lucasfilm's motivation in encouraging this assumption.

The tiered-canon concept for the Star Wars franchise was codified in the early Nineties, when there was zero filmed Star Wars content but an abundance of filmed Star Trek content--any given year from 1993 to 1999 featured more live-action Star Trek than has ever been produced for the Star Wars franchise, an imbalance that has continued to be true overall, so Lucasfilm has a vested interest in its audience believing that the content released more often "counts" in an atypical way and thus imposed consistency amongst that content (as mentioned earlier) to an extent that's also atypical (then and now).

And it worked, but the reason for wanting that perception to work arises from different priorities at the corporate level.

The ironic thing I mention on Star Wars boards is that if the EU brought back Chewie (even the novel he died in never found a body), turned Jaina evil by having her kill Luke's son, and have Luke disband the Jedi Order in grief and go into hiding, we could have gotten basically the same movies we're getting now but with names changed (and Kylo Ren turned into a female).

But that would have required a brilliant screenwriter who was well versed in the EU and adept enough to acknowledge it in throwaway lines that wouldn't confuse the mainstream audience.

 

[Tuskin38]

George ignored the EU, though Filoni was a bit more open in referencing it, which is why we had references in Clone Wars and Rebels.

Anyways this is way off topic now.

 

[Yistaan]

Anyways this is way off topic now.

Fair enough, I've been mentally prepared for Trek literature to be non-canon since before I was 10 years old, so Picard steamrolling it is nothing new to me.

Countdown, though, is a bit of a shock, I admit, since the cover of that comic book outright said "Official prequel" to the 2009 movie, or something like that. This also means we now have absolutely no insight other than the mind meld scene on what really went on behind the scenes (Federation involvement, Klingon reaction) etc. to Romulus' destruction. We now have no idea why Nero's mining crew all have tattoos and are bald.

 

[JD]

I doubt Story Group has much power. If, say, Jon Favreau declared he really, really, really wanted to use Maul in his upcoming tv show 'The Mandalorian', which takes place after ROTJ, are they going to tell him "No" because he died in some obscure episode of the cartoon Rebels?

I don't exactly how it would work, but I have feeling even if they might not be able to say no outright, it would be their respobsibility to work with future creators to try to find a way to work whatever inconsistent thing a movie director/TV show showrunner wanted to do.

They stopped being continued. We'll never get a sequel to the Force Unleashed, Dark Forces video games, or even X-Wing/TIE Fighter.

Star Trek is different, none of the expanded universe characters had the popularity of SW's Kyle Katarn, Starkiller, etc. The most prominent Trek characters in their EU were the film/tv characters who will still get new stories in Picard, etc. That's not even remotely the case in SW where non-film characters like Zayne Carrick, Revan etc. held up entire series on their own.

There are plenty of non-canon Trek character who have been successful, Mac Calhoun was the lead of the New Frontier books, which released 24 novels, 1 graphic novel, 1 comic book miniseries, 2 short stories, and 2 novellas, over the course of 18 years. As far as I know he is also the only non-TV/movie character to have also gotten an action figure.
There were also the SCE, IKS Gorkon, and Vanguard series, which were had of a few minor canon characters who were mostly undeveloped until those series, and new characters. They might not have the wide exposure of a Mara Jade, but they did manage to carry entire series with no major characters. Hell the SCE series, which had no major canon characters in a regular role, went on for #74 e-books. So I'd say those characters most have been fairly popular.

 

[Takeru]

Well, they do have the Story Group now, whose whole job is to work with everyone, even the TV and movie people, to keep things consistent. I doubt they can veto stuff the movie and TV people want to do, but they should at least be aware enough of what they're doing on that side of the franchise to keep the tie-ins more or less consistent with them.
I just double checked on Wookiepedia, and it was one of the Story Group members who recommended using Saw Gerrera in Rogue One, so they do at least have some input on that side of things.

They may listen to the story group for minor things and change a characters' name or backstory slightly but as soon as a movie director is told a major plot of the movie cannot happen because some novel says so the story group will be told to take a hike, there's no way Lucasfilm is so insane they would let a novel dictate the direction of the movie franchise or even order a major rewrite.

 

[Yistaan]

They may listen to the story group for minor things and change a characters' name or backstory slightly but as soon as a movie director is told a major plot of the movie cannot happen because some novel says so the story group will be told to take a hike, there's no way Lucasfilm is so insane they would let a novel dictate the direction of the movie franchise or even order a major rewrite.

I agree, but that's not what Disney/LFL is saying. They're still trying the "it's really all canon" line they used before the buyout. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

Trek is brutally honest. Although as I mentioned "Official Prequel" tagline with Countdown blurred things a bit when they wanted people to buy that comic and hype up the 2009 film. These claims of canonicity are only for marketing.

 

[JD]

They may listen to the story group for minor things and change a characters' name or backstory slightly but as soon as a movie director is told a major plot of the movie cannot happen because some novel says so the story group will be told to take a hike, there's no way Lucasfilm is so insane they would let a novel dictate the direction of the movie franchise or even order a major rewrite.

I addressed that in the post right before this one, I think we must have been writing at the same time.

 

[Yistaan]

So to bring this back to topic, if Story Group hypothetically existed for Star Trek, how would they resolve the Star Trek: Countdown and Star Trek Online scenario? (let's forget other Trek lit for the moment).

Probably the only way it could be done is if Trek Story Group forced the creation of a new story post-STO where someone travels back in time to prevent Data's resurrection. Or have Q snap his fingers.

 

[DimesDan]

So to bring this back to topic, if Story Group hypothetically existed for Star Trek, how would they resolve the Star Trek: Countdown and Star Trek Online scenario? (let's forget other Trek lit for the moment).

Probably the only way it could be done is if Trek Story Group forced the creation of a new story post-STO where someone travels back in time to prevent Data's resurrection. Or have Q snap his fingers.

What has any of this (an obscure one shot comic book and a Computer Game) got to do with the Picard series that is being streamed next year on the CBS and Amazon platforms?

 

[Yistaan]

What has any of this got to do with the Picard series that is being streamed next year on the CBS and Amazon platforms?

"Picard tv series and litverse continuity" is the thread title? Star Trek Online has a lot of associated literature featuring Data? (countdown, Needs of the Many novel, and multiple short stories: https://sto.gamepedia.com/Original_Fiction --last I checked, those are all literature.)

It's literally as on topic as you get.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

Countdown, though, is a bit of a shock, I admit, since the cover of that comic book outright said "Official prequel" to the 2009 movie, or something like that.

All tie-in novels are official Trek, but official doesn't mean canonical.

Besides which, in Countdown Nero's ship was upgraded by Borg tech the Romulans had been researching, doesn't sound entirely dissimilar from the trailer....

 

[DimesDan]

"Picard tv series and litverse continuity" is the thread title? Star Trek Online has a lot of associated literature featuring Data?

There are five novels post Nemesis that feature Data, they'll still exist, they'll just be in a separate quantum reality most likely.

As for the repucutions of Picard on Star Trek Online, maybe take that to the Trek Gaming fora as the Novels and Games are separate realities.

 

[Markonian]

Whoa.

STO literature/writings are separate from the novel-verse continuity, true.

But if we can go on for pages about some other franchise, we might as well check the other rooms in our own house, so to speak.

My baseline for the STO continuity is what was said before: current mission content is fine, only Path to 2409 content will be affected. But “Butterfly” (Season 10, Iconian War mission) set the stage for STO easily using “changes in the timeline” to explain in-game changes. The only major problem is if content with voice recording is invalidated.

As for TrekLit, how would you rate the most recently released novels as their respective series finales, people?
DTI and Rise of the Federation have concluded storylines.
Titan has no finale per se but the last novel had a “tragic/downer ending”, so that may qualify.
VOY ends in a blatant cliffhanger. Ouch.
DS9 has multiple, ongoing storylines, and was about to head into a Gamma sub-series. Also ouch.
Prometheus was conceived as a self—contained trilogy, open for sequels but with a complete story, so that’s safe.

 

[David cgc]

I can sense the frustration at this triumph of marketing over practice, but I'm somewhat sympathetic to Lucasfilm's motivation in encouraging this assumption.

The tiered-canon concept for the Star Wars franchise was codified in the early Nineties, when there was zero filmed Star Wars content but an abundance of filmed Star Trek content--any given year from 1993 to 1999 featured more live-action Star Trek than has ever been produced for the Star Wars franchise, an imbalance that has continued to be true overall, so Lucasfilm has a vested interest in its audience believing that the content released more often "counts" in an atypical way and thus imposed consistency amongst that content (as mentioned earlier) to an extent that's also atypical (then and now).

And it worked, but the reason for wanting that perception to work arises from different priorities at the corporate level.

Indeed. Going to the question of crossover appeal of Treklit characters, CBS/Paramount never put the same wood behind the arrow promoting Trek tie-ins the way Star Wars' were talked up from the '90s to the Disney takeover (depending on how angry you still are at Richard Arnold, it'd be fair to say they actually took wood away from the arrow on Trek tie-ins by going out of their way to minimize them in fan magazines and whatnot).

 

[Takeru]

I addressed that in the post right before this one, I think we must have been writing at the same time.

I agree that they would most likely work with them on some minor things that can be fixed by a line change or a new name but nothing major, the idea is completely unrealistic, reworking a movie script with the story group for the sake of tie in novels would be a waste of time and money, the movie side would have nothing to gain from that, novels and comics simply don't matter in the big picture at all.

Look at the numbers, the Solo movie made almost $400 million worldwide and that's the unsuccessful one. There's an insane amount of money to be made with the movies, in comparison to that the novel profits are mouse poop next to Mount Everest.

The story group is the new "tiered canon", a way to make fans believe everything matters and as long as there are only a few movies and a handful of novels it is relatively easy to keep up the illusion but as soon as there's conflict (and sooner or later there will be) it will be the same as before, the movie does what it wants and the conflicting novel gets "Legends"ed.

Lucasfilm didn't give a shit about the decades worth of storytelling of the old EU but it seems some people still haven't learned the lesson. "This time the novels matter!" No, they don't! Nothing has changed and not realizing that will just lead to disappointment down the line.

 

[JD]

So to bring this back to topic, if Story Group hypothetically existed for Star Trek, how would they resolve the Star Trek: Countdown and Star Trek Online scenario? (let's forget other Trek lit for the moment).

Probably the only way it could be done is if Trek Story Group forced the creation of a new story post-STO where someone travels back in time to prevent Data's resurrection. Or have Q snap his fingers.

Trek already has the perfect way to deal with every inconsistency, just say they are in separate parallel universes. That's way I do every time I come across things that don't line up.

VOY ends in a blatant cliffhanger. Ouch.

Which will be tied up when To Lose the Earth is coming out early next year, probably.

Indeed. Going to the question of crossover appeal of Treklit characters, CBS/Paramount never put the same wood behind the arrow promoting Trek tie-ins the way Star Wars' were talked up from the '90s to the Disney takeover (depending on how angry you still are at Richard Arnold, it'd be fair to say they actually took wood away from the arrow on Trek tie-ins my going out of their way to minimize them in fan magazines and whatnot).

In the last few years they have started doing a bit more to promote the books on the official Star Trek website, and they've done panels for them at the Las Vegas convention. They're still not pushed quite as hard as the Star War books, but it is better than it used to be.

I agree that they would most likely work with them on some minor things that can be fixed by a line change or a new name but nothing major, the idea is completely unrealistic, reworking a movie script with the story group for the sake of tie in novels would be a waste of time and money, the movie side would have nothing to gain from that, novels and comics simply don't matter in the big picture at all.

That is exactly what I said in my post. When I was talking about working around it with people, I meant with the people who write potential books and comics after the movie/TV show, to try to find a potential way around the inconsistency.

 

[Masiral]

They may listen to the story group for minor things and change a characters' name or backstory slightly but as soon as a movie director is told a major plot of the movie cannot happen because some novel says so the story group will be told to take a hike, there's no way Lucasfilm is so insane they would let a novel dictate the direction of the movie franchise or even order a major rewrite.

I think people are confused about the Story Group. The members are not just random people at Lucasfilm - they are the proverbial "suits". They are Lucasfilm executives - no one is telling them to take a hike. Half of the Story Group is also part of the Intellectual Property Development Group, the informal brain trust at Lucasfilm (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property_Development_Group). They aren't Richard Arnold.

 

[Sci]

I think one big thing to remember is that you can't group all the tie in novels into one single continuity 'verse', as @KRAD said,

And as others have mentioned before, even if you narrow it down to just the relaunch novels, the ENT Rise of the Federation and TOS era Vanguard are still likely to be left intact.

Well, sort-of. Most of VAN is unaffected by DIS so far, but IIRC DIS Season One seemed to contradict VAN's reference to Chancellor Sturka having been in power on Qo'noS since 2255. Obviously you can mentally delete one line like that and assume that eventually L'Rell leaves office by the time of VAN, but you do have to squint a little bit.

 

[thribs]

They did. Just before the EU was nullified there was a short story or something set just after ROTJ where Luke returned to Dagobah for Force meditations, through which he was visions of a possible future, which was the post-ROTJ stuff from the EU.

First i’m hearing of this. Was it in the magazine? They’re the only post RoTJ ones I haven’t read.