Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

[David Weller]

Found this. Couldn’t be bothered to read through the thread to see if it’s been mentioned.

https://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/star-trek/60674/star-trek-new-picard-series-news

 

[Christopher]

Never in Star Trek history has a show (or movie) build off a tie-in product that I can remember.

The Day of Honor concept originated in the novels and inspired the makers of Voyager to do an episode based on the idea. But that's not sharing a continuity, just one continuity borrowing a concept from another, like Batman comics incorporating Harley Quinn and Renee Montoya from The Animated Series even though the comics and the show were in distinct realities.

Yeah, that's one argument I've seen a few people make. That the new show can do it's thing and the litverse continue as a sort of alternate universe TNG. I agree, not going to happen. That too would be unprecedented.

Well, not entirely. I've seen some tie-ins that were not entirely faithful to their sources. I remember reading a Xena tie-in anthology with one story that was clearly by an author who knew a lot about Greek history and mythology but next to nothing about Xena, and just superficially tacked approximate versions of Xena and Gabrielle onto a war story cribbed from Herodotus or something -- which was a terrible mismatch because Xena's universe was a deliberately revisionist, modernized, funhouse-mirror version of ancient myth. And the earliest Trek tie-ins like Mission to Horatius and Spock Must Die! and the initial Gold Key and British comics were often hilariously divergent from show continuity.

But that wouldn't be the case with Trek tie-ins today, because there's already a well-established universe we know and can draw on, and a well-established relationship with the studio that sets the standards for how it's done. And some people seem to want the tie-ins to actively mutiny against the new canon and establish their own independent splinter colony of continuity or something, and that's just not how the business relationship works. The tie-ins wouldn't exist without the canon, so it's our responsibility to follow where the canon leads.

As to the general topic.....................

The best-selling tie-in novel reaches a few hundred thousand people. The lowest-rated TV series reaches millions and millions of people. Tie-in fiction is read by less than 10% and often less than 1% of the actual viewing audience for the TV show or movie to which it ties in.

No Hollywood producer/screenwriter/director is going to alter their story in order to cater to that miniscule a percnetage of their audience.

Which makes it puzzling that there's so much effort by modern comic-book movies to stay consistent with their source comics and not offend the comics fans, given that the readership numbers of comics today are much smaller than they were before the direct market took over, and it's rare for a single comic issue to sell more than 10,000 copies. I figure it might be because comics fans are very active online and that makes them disproportionately influential in creating positive or negative buzz. Fans of prose tie-ins to a TV/movie franchise are not going to be anywhere near as prominent online.

 

[KRAD]

Which makes it puzzling that there's so much effort by modern comic-book movies to stay consistent with their source comics and not offend the comics fans, given that the readership numbers of comics today are much smaller than they were before the direct market took over, and it's rare for a single comic issue to sell more than 10,000 copies. I figure it might be because comics fans are very active online and that makes them disproportionately influential in creating positive or negative buzz. Fans of prose tie-ins to a TV/movie franchise are not going to be anywhere near as prominent online.

Well, the comics are still the source material. The Marvel Cinematic Universe, the "Berlanti-verse" TV shows, the Christopher Nolan bat-movies, the DCEU, they're all tie-in fiction, too. And they're made by people who actually respect the source material. (Also it's perhaps not a coincidence that such movies became more popular and successful when they showed more fidelity to the source material than they did in the 20th-century dark ages of superhero movies and TV shows.....)

 

[Damian]

And the earliest Trek tie-ins like Mission to Horatius and Spock Must Die! and the initial Gold Key and British comics were often hilariously divergent from show continuity.

But that wouldn't be the case with Trek tie-ins today, because there's already a well-established universe we know and can draw on, and a well-established relationship with the studio that sets the standards for how it's done. And some people seem to want the tie-ins to actively mutiny against the new canon and establish their own independent splinter colony of continuity or something, and that's just not how the business relationship works. The tie-ins wouldn't exist without the canon, so it's our responsibility to follow where the canon leads

Yeah, probably in those early days when there was just an original series (and not even an animated series yet) they were probably just feeling their way and there probably wasn't even formal consideration of things like canon yet. Probably in a way back in the 1970's since there was so little on screen canon yet, the authors were probably a bit freer to do their own thing (though I'm not sure how much control was exercised by TPTB at the time).

But to be perfectly honest, despite my hope that there is some way for the litverse to continue, even in modified form, I don't want to see any mutiny. First, that will never happen, But also I've always agreed the on screen canon must come first. It'd be nice if books, comics and on screen material were able to coexist in some shared continuity and feed off one another, but that would have had to have been done from the start. But they don't and I agree if the litverse can't continue then it will have to reorient itself to the new reality. My only hope is that at the very least any major loose threads can be tied up, maybe in some trilogy finale that closes it out in some way.

One thing I like about the Discovery universe is it does seem there is at least some of that going on. The on screen canon will always come first, but up to this point it seems everyone involved is trying to maintain a shared continuity. Time will tell if that continues, but thus far it seems to be working.

 

[Damian]

One interesting thing though is one relaunch that should be able to continue regardless is Enterprise. Thus far I haven't seen anything that would impact that series, and with the nu-TNG show taking place almost 2 1/2 centuries later I would think it unlikely that would have much of an impact. It'd be nice to see at least one continuing universe soldier on in some fashion, after all their are a number of story threads there to continue. I'll keep my fingers crossed, despite my pessimism.

 

[TheAlmanac]

I don't feel like reading ten pages of comments to make sure I'm not saying something out of the loop, but the novels can just retcon the Litverse into another timeline entirely. How many sentences would that take? Just make sure the Hobus star isn't destroyed this time and it can go on its merry way.

There is at least one precedent to this that I can think of: When Terminator 2 came out and overwrote all of the tie-in comics Dark Horse had been publishing up to that point, their last miniseries in that continuity culminated in Sarah giving birth to Jane Connor.

 

[valkyrie013]

Well, most of the stories from the litverse are stand alones, so, most that would happen with them is they might get a re write, or they happened, just the changed things get glossed over. Picards kid hasnt really been at the center of attention in any of the novels, so it "Could" be glossed over if they change it in the show.
What will most likely happen, is we get this year, then next year they'll look at what happens in the series, and course correct what needs to be, or, which will be sad, shelve the whole current post tng litverse..
And being former military, In the idea that every brand spanking new ensign makes admiral is a farce. ( remember the Mars Attacks line with that general.. Just keep my head down and say nothing, i'll eventually get there.. hehe) In the "real world" people join up, even officers for 4-5 years, then get out. Wasn't for them, didn't see a future in, didn't like it, etc. It's kind of shown that once you in starfleet, your a lifer.. nope. People get out, people, no matter how long they stay in, don't get above say, commander, there a biologist, or linguist and have no interest in the commmand track. they'll never be admirals, ever. Troi or Crusher will never be admirals.
So people stay in, people get out.

 

[marlboro]

Found this. Couldn’t be bothered to read through the thread to see if it’s been mentioned.

https://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/star-trek/60674/star-trek-new-picard-series-news

Yeah, I think the tiny bit of info in the article was previously mentioned.

I am completely out of the loop when it comes to Discovery and the newest movies, but this Kurtzman fellow seems to have been involved in a lot of crappy movies and shows. Not an encouraging sign, for me at least.

 

[Dayton Ward]

QuchHa' isn't "the Novelverse's term for the smooth headed Klingons," that's the term that the Klingon Language Institute came up with and provided to tie-in writers to use for the smooth-headed Klingons.

Yes, after Kevin and I asked Lawrence Schoen to help us with developing such a term when we were writing Summon the Thunder. I still haz the email!

 

[David Weller]

Yeah, I think the tiny bit of info in the article was previously mentioned.

I am completely out of the loop when it comes to Discovery and the newest movies, but this Kurtzman fellow seems to have been involved in a lot of crappy movies and shows. Not an encouraging sign, for me at least.

I’ve watched Discovery and enjoyed it. Only one dud episode in the entire run, IMO.

 

[JD]

I loved this discussion. And I would love to see the litverse be able to continue unaffected, even enhanced by the nu-TNG show. But I have to admit, Christopher and some others have made some compelling arguments as to why that is not likely. There are too many ifs, to many things to keep track of. And the showrunners will want to do their own thing, and create their own show. Never in Star Trek history has a show (or movie) build off a tie-in product that I can remember. Oh, there's the occasional nod (probably in most cases coincidence, but I'm sure once or twice someone threw a nod to a book they liked). And maybe the nu-TNG show will give a nod to some litverse storyline or character at some point.

But when I consider it without my attachment to the novelverse, I can't help but think it's just not going to happen. It may not go caput in one episode. The litverse might be able to soldier on for a period of time, hopefully long enough to tie up any major story threads to some degree. But my guess by the end of the first season it will probably be almost impossible to reconcile the current litverse with the nu-TNG show to any meaningful degree. It may be one line of dialogue that brings it to an end, or it may be a lot of little things that add up after a while.

It sort of brings me back to my original feeling. That as far as the novels go my gut feeling is they will be mostly centered on the original series, Discovery and the nu-TNG show (and any further shows that come down the pike). I honestly don't envision much more in the way of old-TNG books (unless they support the show in some way), DS9, Voyager or Enterprise book, and almost certainly no more New Frontier, Seeker or any other extra-universe books. Maybe an E-book, but I'm not really feeling confident about that either to be honest.

Now to be clear, I have no problem with books that tie in to the various shows. I've been reading the Discovery books so I'm in no way saying that's a bad thing. I'd just hate to think that there'd be no further stories in the other series. But it is a business, and CBS, and Pocketbooks is in it to make money.

This is just my feeling. I surely don't know anything more than what everyone else know. So feel free to disagree. And I'd love to be wrong. I'd love to find out in 2020 they'll be a original series, Discovery, Enterprise, Deep Space Nine, Voyager and nu-TNG book, and what the Hell, a 5th Seeker book, times 2. That would make my day.

They could just do new Voyager, and DS9 novels that are consistent with the new show. If the show is going to be telling us what became of the TNG characters, then the novels could be a good way to show us what has happened to the other shows' characters.

QuchHa' isn't "the Novelverse's term for the smooth headed Klingons," that's the term that the Klingon Language Institute came up with and provided to tie-in writers to use for the smooth-headed Klingons.

Oh, I did not know that. I had assumed it was something whoever wrote the first book to deal with the TOS Klingons post Enterprise came up with on their own, and that it was unique to the novels.

One interesting thing though is one relaunch that should be able to continue regardless is Enterprise. Thus far I haven't seen anything that would impact that series, and with the nu-TNG show taking place almost 2 1/2 centuries later I would think it unlikely that would have much of an impact. It'd be nice to see at least one continuing universe soldier on in some fashion, after all their are a number of story threads there to continue. I'll keep my fingers crossed, despite my pessimism.

I have a feeling if the new show wipes out the Relaunches that is probably going include the Enteprise books too, there is just to much shared worldbuilding there.

Well, most of the stories from the litverse are stand alones, so, most that would happen with them is they might get a re write, or they happened, just the changed things get glossed over. Picards kid hasnt really been at the center of attention in any of the novels, so it "Could" be glossed over if they change it in the show.

I don't know how well that would work, even though the stories are fairly standalone, they still all build off of each other, and it would be really hard to do some of the later stories without having that past there. If we get rid of Destiny for instance, then pretty much every story after that wouldn't really be able to happen.

 

[Damian]

They could just do new Voyager, and DS9 novels that are consistent with the new show. If the show is going to be telling us what became of the TNG characters, then the novels could be a good way to show us what has happened to the other shows' characters.

Is it possible. Yeah. But I think it unlikely. With 2+ shows on the air I think they'll want to focus almost exclusively on tie in novels. I think the other spin offs will gradually disappear. Only the original series would continue.

Hopefully the last Voyager novel gets released before everything gets blown up though. So far it's not cancelled but as busy as Beyer is I wouldn't be surprised if it gets dropped at some point. She has a role on Discovery last I remember, and she's helping create the nu-TNG show. There's only so much one person can do.

 

[JD]

I guess it's been long enough since they were on the air they might not be getting the readers to be worth continuing the other series, but it is worth keeping in mind that they have continued to publish novels for all of the previous series each new series started. Even when both DS9 and Voyager were on the air they did still continued to print TNG and TOS book, and when Enteprise was on the air they still published those two and DS9 and Voyager books.

 

[Damian]

I guess it's been long enough since they were on the air they might not be getting the readers to be worth continuing the other series, but it is worth keeping in mind that they have continued to publish novels for all of the previous series each new series started. Even when both DS9 and Voyager were on the air they did still continued to print TNG and TOS book, and when Enteprise was on the air they still published those two and DS9 and Voyager books.

Yeah, but they sort of ran one after another. And then after Enterprise ended there was nothing on air until the Abrams movies started, but even then it was just 3 movies and the books couldn't reference them anyway. So the extra universe stuff was free to go in pretty much any direction (with some parameters but still). I think that's the main difference. And those series for a lot of people are way in the rearview mirror.

The original series is an exception though. Those will go on forever

 

[Tuskin38]

Just readers? Kristen Beyer is a litverse author and is associated with the Picard show. You'd think she'd know about the litverse continuity.

That means nothing.

 

[Greg Cox]

I can't really speak to the tail-wagging-the-dog argument, that really depends on the egos, interests, and preconceptions of the people involved, I was just interested in the idea that drawing on existing backstory (instead of making up something new they'd be equally confused by) would be just too damn hard for the poor saps in the audience to keep up with.

To be clear, it's not about egos or preconceptions, it's about math. Books are read in the thousands. TV shows are watched in the millions. It's whole different order of magnitude. Only about 2% of the viewing audience have read the books so it doesn't make sense for the shows to have to follow the books. 98% of the audience will never notice any discrepancies.

Not an artistic choice, not a matter of pride or ego. Just cold, hard math.

 

[Damian]

To be clear, it's not about egos or preconceptions, it's about math. Books are read in the thousands. TV shows are watched in the millions. It's whole different order of magnitude. Only about 2% of the viewing audience have read the books so it doesn't make sense for the shows to have follow the books. 98% of the audience will never notice any discrepancies.

Not an artistic choice, not a matter of pride or ego. Just cold, hard math.

Yeah, I agree there. They won't be beholden to any tie in fiction. The primary objective will be to make a good show. If the viewers love it then they succeeded, if not, well then they didn't. But I do find it hard to believe anything Patrick Stewart is in these days would be bad. I think he's got an eye for good potential by now.

The only way I see them ever using the litverse as their background is if they felt it served the show they are creating. That the showrunners loved where the litverse have taken Picard up to the point it is at and want to build off that. I would think that's pretty unlikely. It would probably have to mean that what their vision of the show is, and where the litverse is now, matched up pretty well. That they liked that the Borg were gone, that Picard has a son, the idea of the Typhon Pact, and so much more.

I think we'll probably have to see how it goes ultimately. There's also the slim possibility that the show doesn't contradict the litverse much just by pure happenstance and it can continue and still tie into the nu-TNG show. But honestly, there have been so many storylines in 15+ years of relaunch novels I find that highly unlikely.

But I don't really see the showrunners as egotistical jerks who are licking their chops to destroy the litverse, assuming they are all even aware of it. I wouldn't be surprised even if they threw a nod to some storyline or character that appeared in a book, just as sort of an Easter egg. That's happened once or twice in Star Trek history.

 

[Christopher]

But I do find it hard to believe anything Patrick Stewart is in these days would be bad.

Three words: The Emoji Movie.

But I don't really see the showrunners as egotistical jerks who are licking their chops to destroy the litverse, assuming they are all even aware of it.

One work of imagination cannot destroy another. They're all equally unreal, so they can coexist. As I already pointed out, the Novelverse is just one of several mutually contradictory tie-in continuities that already exist. Its existence doesn't destroy the STO or IDW or ST Adventures continuities, nor do they destroy it. Of course, a new canonical 24th-century continuity that conflicted massively with the Novelverse would end it, but ending a series does not destroy it, because it's still there to read, just like the '80s Trek novels are still there to read and still enjoyed by many.

So nobody tells a story to "destroy" a different version. They tell it because they have their own story to tell, and it's not a zero-sum game.

 

[Damian]

Three words: The Emoji Movie.

Ok, no one's perfect. My daughter liked it, not sure if that's a good thing or not though

Of course, a new canonical 24th-century continuity that conflicted massively with the Novelverse would end it, but ending a series does not destroy it, because it's still there to read, just like the '80s Trek novels are still there to read and still enjoyed by many.

Oh, I know. In fact I hope to re-read some of my old 80's novels this summer for the first time in almost 3 decades. I'm looking forward actually to seeing how they viewed things back then with the limited canon they had. And the books will always be there. It'll just be sad to see them come to an end. Like saying goodbye to an old friend almost. I still remember how cool it was when DS9 started the relaunch wagon, and eventually spread to the other series as they concluded. It was like the series never really ended. But as I keep all my novels, someday, I'll re-read the relaunch novels and enjoy them all over again too.

And litverse or no litverse, I look forward to watching the nu-TNG show---well when it eventually comes out on Blu-Ray

 

[Jakks]

I like to think the angst and worry about the fate of the litverse continuity you see here is actually a testament from the fans/readers to all the current (and past) authors and editors of just how much your works have meant to a great many people. Nobody wants a good thing to end.

I know for me personally, having read my way thru most of the 80's Pocket Trek books then laying off for a long time it was the discovery of not only the excellent writing...but the tighter overall interconnected plotlines and stories that brought me fully back into the Star Trek novels.

It's been a hell of a ride. Thank you, to all of you who've made it possible.