Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

[Christopher]

I was just making the point that litverse or not litverse, close to 20 years after making captain it would be reasonable that he would be an Admiral by then.

Not necessarily. Trek fans -- and often writers -- seem to assume that every single officer who starts out as an ensign will eventually get to be a captain or admiral. But that's not how the military works. Any officer is responsible for a large number of people of lower rank, so the higher the rank, the fewer openings there are for it.

Here's a list of the number of active duty officers of various ranks in the US Navy as of a few years ago (if I'm interpreting the meaning of the site correctly):

https://www.navycs.com/blogs/2013/04/11/2014-projected-active-duty-end-strength

Out of all commissioned officers, about a third are lieutenants, and only a fifth are commanders or higher. There are half as many captains as commanders, and a fifth as many captains as lieutenants. And there are only about 7% as many admirals (of all ranks combined) as there are captains. Which means that 4 out of 5 lieutenants will never make it to captain and 13 out of 14 captains will never get to be admirals, because there just aren't enough openings.

 

[Damian]

Not necessarily. Trek fans -- and often writers -- seem to assume that every single officer who starts out as an ensign will eventually get to be a captain or admiral. But that's not how the military works. Any officer is responsible for a large number of people of lower rank, so the higher the rank, the fewer openings there are for it.

Here's a list of the number of active duty officers of various ranks in the US Navy as of a few years ago (if I'm interpreting the meaning of the site correctly):

https://www.navycs.com/blogs/2013/04/11/2014-projected-active-duty-end-strength

Out of all commissioned officers, about a third are lieutenants, and only a fifth are commanders or higher. There are half as many captains as commanders, and a fifth as many captains as lieutenants. And there are only about 7% as many admirals (of all ranks combined) as there are captains. Which means that 4 out of 5 lieutenants will never make it to captain and 13 out of 14 captains will never get to be admirals, because there just aren't enough openings.

Come on, this is Riker though .

 

[David cgc]

The other reason besides the fact that the tail never wags the dog is that simply a sense of mystery - why is it Picard and Riker haven't spoken since Nemesis? Why did Crusher kill herself? What is the relationship of new character X to Picard?

You cannot do this if people can read memory Beta and get the lowdown.

On the other hand, it's not unprecedented for cross-media properties to play coy with something within a story for the new audience, while people more familiar with the material will know what they're talking about. The first example that comes to mind is comic book movies having foreshadowing that requires a Vox explainer every single time.

Oh! Wait! There's a perfect Trek example; First Contact. If your first exposure to the Borg was that movie, it's entirely possible you might not pick up on the fact that Picard's nightmare was a literal flashback, and you wouldn't know about what happened in BoBW until Picard explains it all to Lily at the end of the film.

Heck, Star Trek '09 required a starling amount of knowledge about an eighteen-year-old episode of TNG for things to fully make sense (Spock is an ambassador, he's been up to his eyeballs in Romulans for decades), and that didn't stop them. And don't even get me started on the Solo thing mentioned earlier. It remains to be seen if that's a black swan or a one-off fluke, but, hey. Lost was a hit. People love homework with their entertainment nowadays.

 

[Christopher]

On the other hand, it's not unprecedented for cross-media properties to play coy with something within a story for the new audience, while people more familiar with the material will know what they're talking about. The first example that comes to mind is comic book movies having foreshadowing that requires a Vox explainer every single time.

Even so, they just borrow elements from the comics and tell new versions of them in their own distinct continuity. It's not the same thing as maintaining a consistent continuity between the two, which is what people are wishing for with the Novelverse and the new shows.

Also, in that case, the movies are the adaptations referencing the original comics. So that doesn't really work as an analogy for Star Trek, where the screen franchise is the original and the books are a derivative/adapted work.

 

[David cgc]

I can't really speak to the tail-wagging-the-dog argument, that really depends on the egos, interests, and preconceptions of the people involved, I was just interested in the idea that drawing on existing backstory (instead of making up something new they'd be equally confused by) would be just too damn hard for the poor saps in the audience to keep up with.

 

[Damian]

I can't really speak to the tail-wagging-the-dog argument, that really depends on the egos, interests, and preconceptions of the people involved, I was just interested in the idea that drawing on existing backstory (instead of making up something new they'd be equally confused by) would be just too damn hard for the poor saps in the audience to keep up with.

Nah. There's probably ways to do it that wouldn't require you to go back and read 15 years of novels. Just for the fun of it let's just say the showrunners loved the relaunch litverse and decided they wanted to stay consistent with that.

Using Christopher's prior Tzenkethi example, them showing a Tzenkethi that's faithful to their description in the novels wouldn't require you to know they were even in a novel, it just is.

From a narrative perspective for plots and so forth, that would be the writer's of the episodes problem and probably some fact checker to make sure they weren't conflicting with prior stories (on a macro level that is, I don't think anyone would think every last detail would be consistent). If Picard has a teenage son who's mother is Beverly, again, that doesn't require a lot of exposition for the audience. It just is. You wouldn't need to know every last detail about his childhood. The Borg are gone, well, that they don't have to do anything if they don't want to. They don't have to be mentioned at all. Or a simple line that they are gone would do the trick.

But the point is that retaining backstory would be more something the showrunners would be concerned with. It'd be up to them how much they'd want to reveal to the audience about the past and if it had something to do with a specific episode they were writing. There wouldn't be any need to bring up something that had nothing to do with the plot after all. Someone would have to make sure it didn't conflict, but that's background stuff the audience wouldn't know about.

Again, this is just for argument's sake. First Contact was a big hit when it came out. It really didn't matter to the public if Picard's vision was a nightmare or flashback. The difference there was they were referencing an on-screen, canon event. This would be referencing a tie-in fiction event or story, but I think the same thing would apply. Simply being there are ways of staying consistent with litverse stuff without requiring knowledge of litverse stuff.

In reality the chance of that are pretty slim. It would certainly be a first for Star Trek.

 

[Christopher]

I can't really speak to the tail-wagging-the-dog argument, that really depends on the egos, interests, and preconceptions of the people involved, I was just interested in the idea that drawing on existing backstory (instead of making up something new they'd be equally confused by) would be just too damn hard for the poor saps in the audience to keep up with.

That's not it at all. Rather, it's that the continuity in the tie-ins is known to such a small segment of the audience that there's no incentive to use it instead of creating your own versions of things. After all, creators like to create. It's right there in the name. People want to tell stories their own way.

Besides, one thing folks around here keep forgetting is that there isn't just one Trek tie-in continuity. There are several. The novels are one version. Star Trek Online is another, incompatible version. IDW Comics is another -- several, in fact, since it doesn't have a unified continuity. And the Star Trek Adventures role-playing game is yet another. So when you talk about wanting the shows to acknowledge the tie-in continuity, which one should they use? Novel fans want it to be the Novelverse, but is that fair to fans of the comics or the games?

Heck, given the nature of the entertainment industry these days, I'd think the makers of a TV show would be more likely to pay attention to comics and video games than they would to print books. So if we did see a Tzenkethi or whatever, it might be more inspired by the STO version than the book version.

 

[woodstock]

I don't feel like reading ten pages of comments to make sure I'm not saying something out of the loop, but the novels can just retconn the Litverse into another timeline entirely. How many sentences would that take? Just make sure the Hobus star isn't destroyed this time and it can go on it's merry way.

 

[Damian]

Besides, one thing folks around here keep forgetting is that there isn't just one Trek tie-in continuity. There are several. The novels are one version.

Yeah, but we don't care about them. That's their problem

I kid, I kid. The show can throw them a bone now and again

 

[WarpFactorZ]

The last Trek novel I read was in 1987 or so, though I did read (and enjoyed) the Countdown and Countdown to Darkness comics. So, I'm oblivious to what's being erased here, aside from random searches on Memory Alpha. But at the end of the day, the reset is just as valid as that done to the Star Wars EU (which from what I've read, was a blessing in disguise).

 

[marlboro]

How pissed off must DaiMon Bok be to find out that Picard finally has a son for him to strike at, but the TrekLit universe is gonna get nuked before he has a chance?

 

[Damian]

How pissed off must DaiMon Bok be to find out that Picard finally has a son for him to strike at, but the TrekLit universe is gonna get nuked before he has a chance?

If they hurry they might be able to fit him in.

 

[marlboro]

If they hurry they might be able to fit him in.

The epilogue of the last TNG book:

Bok sitting in a bar on Romulus, in deep contemplation. Finally, he leaps to his feet and proclaims "I've got it!"

KABOOM

 

[Christopher]

I don't feel like reading ten pages of comments to make sure I'm not saying something out of the loop, but the novels can just retconn the Litverse into another timeline entirely. How many sentences would that take? Just make sure the Hobus star isn't destroyed this time and it can go on it's merry way.

It doesn't work that way. Tie-in fiction is not able to do whatever it wants, because its purpose is as a supplement to the canon. It's a derivative work licensed from someone else's property. It's like borrowing someone's car -- it doesn't give you the right to run off with it permanently. Whatever new screen canon establishes, the books have to follow it, because that's what tie-ins are for.

Besides, a changed timeline wouldn't explain contradictions in things like, say, the appearance of a species. If they showed a Tzenkethi and it looked completely unlike the book version, that's a difference in millions of years of evolution, and can't be explained away by the timeline being changed a dozen years back.

 

[Damian]

I loved this discussion. And I would love to see the litverse be able to continue unaffected, even enhanced by the nu-TNG show. But I have to admit, Christopher and some others have made some compelling arguments as to why that is not likely. There are too many ifs, to many things to keep track of. And the showrunners will want to do their own thing, and create their own show. Never in Star Trek history has a show (or movie) build off a tie-in product that I can remember. Oh, there's the occasional nod (probably in most cases coincidence, but I'm sure once or twice someone threw a nod to a book they liked). And maybe the nu-TNG show will give a nod to some litverse storyline or character at some point.

But when I consider it without my attachment to the novelverse, I can't help but think it's just not going to happen. It may not go caput in one episode. The litverse might be able to soldier on for a period of time, hopefully long enough to tie up any major story threads to some degree. But my guess by the end of the first season it will probably be almost impossible to reconcile the current litverse with the nu-TNG show to any meaningful degree. It may be one line of dialogue that brings it to an end, or it may be a lot of little things that add up after a while.

It sort of brings me back to my original feeling. That as far as the novels go my gut feeling is they will be mostly centered on the original series, Discovery and the nu-TNG show (and any further shows that come down the pike). I honestly don't envision much more in the way of old-TNG books (unless they support the show in some way), DS9, Voyager or Enterprise book, and almost certainly no more New Frontier, Seeker or any other extra-universe books. Maybe an E-book, but I'm not really feeling confident about that either to be honest.

Now to be clear, I have no problem with books that tie in to the various shows. I've been reading the Discovery books so I'm in no way saying that's a bad thing. I'd just hate to think that there'd be no further stories in the other series. But it is a business, and CBS, and Pocketbooks is in it to make money.

This is just my feeling. I surely don't know anything more than what everyone else know. So feel free to disagree. And I'd love to be wrong. I'd love to find out in 2020 they'll be a original series, Discovery, Enterprise, Deep Space Nine, Voyager and nu-TNG book, and what the Hell, a 5th Seeker book, times 2. That would make my day.

 

[Damian]

It doesn't work that way. Tie-in fiction is not able to do whatever it wants, because its purpose is as a supplement to the canon. It's a derivative work licensed from someone else's property. It's like borrowing someone's car -- it doesn't give you the right to run off with it permanently. Whatever new screen canon establishes, the books have to follow it, because that's what tie-ins are for.

Besides, a changed timeline wouldn't explain contradictions in things like, say, the appearance of a species. If they showed a Tzenkethi and it looked completely unlike the book version, that's a difference in millions of years of evolution, and can't be explained away by the timeline being changed a dozen years back.

Yeah, that's one argument I've seen a few people make. That the new show can do it's thing and the litverse continue as a sort of alternate universe TNG. I agree, not going to happen. That too would be unprecedented. I mean, I would read the books, I wouldn't care, but that doesn't matter.

Whatever arguments I've made about the litverse, that is something I never see happening. Either the litverse can continue in the new canon or it can't. It won't continue as a separate entity that contradicts canon.

 

[woodstock]

It doesn't work that way. Tie-in fiction is not able to do whatever it wants, because its purpose is as a supplement to the canon. It's a derivative work licensed from someone else's property. It's like borrowing someone's car -- it doesn't give you the right to run off with it permanently. Whatever new screen canon establishes, the books have to follow it, because that's what tie-ins are for.

I knew you were going to say something like that. I probably already made my comment on another thread. This time fracture Rick and Morty episode isn't helping me figure out if we've had this convo before.

 

[KRAD]

KRAD wrote a Klingon issue for the same series that uses the Novelverse's term for the smooth headed Klingons.

QuchHa' isn't "the Novelverse's term for the smooth headed Klingons," that's the term that the Klingon Language Institute came up with and provided to tie-in writers to use for the smooth-headed Klingons.

 

[KRAD]

As to the general topic.....................

The best-selling tie-in novel reaches a few hundred thousand people. The lowest-rated TV series reaches millions and millions of people. Tie-in fiction is read by less than 10% and often less than 1% of the actual viewing audience for the TV show or movie to which it ties in.

No Hollywood producer/screenwriter/director is going to alter their story in order to cater to that miniscule a percnetage of their audience.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I wonder if maybe Picard had family somewhere between Hobus and Romulus, and novelverse fans can assume it's Beverly and Rene.

I don't feel like reading ten pages of comments to make sure I'm not saying something out of the loop, but the novels can just retconn the Litverse into another timeline entirely. How many sentences would that take? Just make sure the Hobus star isn't destroyed this time and it can go on it's merry way.

Technically the novel Star Trek Online: The Needs of the Many already did this. Either Lucsley or Dulmer were suffering with temporal psychosis and "remembered" events from alternate timelines, including one where Janeway died and the Borg invaded, and another where Vulcan was destroyed.

But they'll never publish an ongoing series of novels that contradict what's happening in TV/movie Trek.