Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

[Damian]

I have to admit, as much as I wished they would not contradict the books, I am honestly pretty shocked to hear that they did actually take a look at what the books have done.

Yeah, me too quite honestly. But not a bad idea. You got all this stuff out there these days. Why not look at it. Use all the tools at your disposal.

In fact, Alex Kurtzman is the guy in charge (along with Heather Kadin) of the production company that makes the shows -- basically the equivalent position of Greg Berlanti on the Arrowverse shows or Shonda Rimes on Shondaland shows.

I'm surprised you left out Rick Berman, our own Star Trek alumni--though I guess he wasn't in charge of a production company per se. Just the Star Trek production (though he seems to have a bad reputation among some Trekkie circles)

 

[Christopher]

I'm surprised you left out Rick Berman, our own Star Trek alumni--though I guess he wasn't in charge of a production company per se. Just the Star Trek production (though he seems to have a bad reputation among some Trekkie circles)

Berman wasn't quite the same, since he wasn't really a writer-turned-exec like the others. He was more on the production/logistical side of things than the writing side, which makes him more like Herb Solow or Heather Kadin (or Sarah Shechter on the Berlanti shows). It was only on ENT that he became a regular writer-producer.

The closest Trek analogy I can think of is Michael Piller on late TNG and early VGR, when Jeri Taylor was the one running the writers' room but she answered to Piller. I guess that was a similar arrangement, in a way.

 

[Damian]

Berman wasn't quite the same, since he wasn't really a writer-turned-exec like the others. He was more on the production/logistical side of things than the writing side, which makes him more like Herb Solow or Heather Kadin (or Sarah Shechter on the Berlanti shows). It was only on ENT that he became a regular writer-producer.

The closest Trek analogy I can think of is Michael Piller on late TNG and early VGR, when Jeri Taylor was the one running the writers' room but she answered to Piller. I guess that was a similar arrangement, in a way.

Yeah, true. The Berman team was really the first time I noticed background things like that. Before that I knew that Rodenberry created it, and a couple of episode writers, but I didn't pay a lot of attention to the production people all that much. Of course part of it is when I first became a fan I was 12, and probably not too many 12 year olds think about things like that anyway. As I got older I started noticing more.

That does make me wonder, though, do you ever get to the point there are too many producers in the kitchen? One thing I noticed with Discovery is just the sheer number of producers involved with it. In the credits I swear there are more producers listed in the opening then actors. Does it ever get to be a detriment? I know during the Berman years there were a lot of producers too, but it was a lot easier to pin down the showrunners, and usually there were maybe 2, 3 tops that were the go to guys (and gal). It seems with Discovery that it's more spread out.

 

[Christopher]

That does make me wonder, though, do you ever get to the point there are too many producers in the kitchen? One thing I noticed with Discovery is just the sheer number of producers involved with it. In the credits I swear there are more producers listed in the opening then actors.

There are several different categories of people that are all called executive producers for various reasons. Some are writers who have been promoted through the ranks. (These are people like Kurtzman, Berg & Harberts, or Akiva Goldsman.) Others are people in charge of the practical/logistical side of a production, i.e. the process of turning the scripts into episodes and managing the business of the production. (As mentioned, Heather Kadin is the top member of this group.) Sometimes one will be a producing director, a director who's permanently attached to the show and supervises the other directors to give the show a consistent directorial tone. (This is Olatunde Osunsanmi's role, as I understand it.) Others are financing partners, production company heads, rights holders, famous members of the cast, or other people whose only involvement is monetary or honorary. (Rod Roddenberry & Trevor Roth are in this category somewhere.) The reason shows today list so many EPs isn't because their writing staffs are getting bigger, it's because shows are more expensive to make and need more investors and production partners, or sometimes just because the industry hands out the title too profligately. The number of EPs on the business side often rivals or surpasses the number on the writing/production side.

 

[Damian]

There are several different categories of people that are all called executive producers for various reasons. Some are writers who have been promoted through the ranks. (These are people like Kurtzman, Berg & Harberts, or Akiva Goldsman.) Others are people in charge of the practical/logistical side of a production, i.e. the process of turning the scripts into episodes and managing the business of the production. (As mentioned, Heather Kadin is the top member of this group.) Sometimes one will be a producing director, a director who's permanently attached to the show and supervises the other directors to give the show a consistent directorial tone. (This is Olatunde Osunsanmi's role, as I understand it.) Others are financing partners, production company heads, rights holders, famous members of the cast, or other people whose only involvement is monetary or honorary. (Rod Roddenberry & Trevor Roth are in this category somewhere.) The reason shows today list so many EPs isn't because their writing staffs are getting bigger, it's because shows are more expensive to make and need more investors and production partners, or sometimes just because the industry hands out the title too profligately. The number of EPs on the business side often rivals or surpasses the number on the writing/production side.

Very interesting. I guess in the past I got used to one person sort of controlling the whole shebang. Rick Berman certainly comes to mind. I mean, he certainly had guys like Braga, Piller, Taylor and later Coto, but there was never any question Berman had the final say (well except the Paramount CEO I guess). Harve Bennett is another on the movie side. And of couse Roddenberry in the early days. It sounds like Kurtzman has taken on that role these days.

 

[Tosk]

I feel 100% confident that the guy who wrote "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen" and "Cowboys & Aliens" will make the right choice when choosing the best story ideas.

That's not fair. If you're going to make fun of the past work of someone, at least give more than two examples to try and balance it out.

Transformers
Transformers 2
Cowboys and Aliens.
The Mummy
Amazing Spider-Man 2
Star Trek Into Darkness
The Island.

...Oh.

 

[Damian]

That's not fair. If you're going to make fun of the past work of someone, at least give more than two examples to try and balance it out.

Transformers
Transformers 2
Cowboys and Aliens.
The Mummy
Amazing Spider-Man 2
Star Trek Into Darkness
The Island.

...Oh.

Oh boy, I thought Marlboro was serious . I never saw the 2 movies he cited. I guess now they were pretty lousy

 

[Damian]

I did like STID, mostly. I didn't like resurrecting Khan all that much....and magic blood, don't even get me started on that one. But otherwise I thought it was pretty good.

 

[F. King Daniel]

That's not fair. If you're going to make fun of the past work of someone, at least give more than two examples to try and balance it out.

Transformers
Transformers 2
Cowboys and Aliens.
The Mummy
Amazing Spider-Man 2
Star Trek Into Darkness
The Island.

...Oh.

I liked all except Transformers 2, so I'm good

 

[Christopher]

Very interesting. I guess in the past I got used to one person sort of controlling the whole shebang. Rick Berman certainly comes to mind.

It's always been the case that there's been a writing side to production and a logistical/business side, and the creative and logistical producers have always been paired off -- Gene Roddenberry and Herb Solow, Michael Piller (or Jeri Taylor or Ira Behr or Brannon Braga) and Rick Berman, J. J. Abrams and Bryan Burk, Greg Berlanti and Sarah Schechter, Alex Kurtzman and Heather Kadin, etc. Usually it's the writer-producers who get the attention while their partners work quietly but diligently in the background assembling and supervising the team of professionals that does the hard and complicated work of turning the writers' words into reality (or a very expensive simulation thereof) -- and even though I'm a writer, I find that kind of unfair. Berman is an exception in that regard, in part because he did co-create DS9, VGR, and ENT and occasionally participate in the writing (even becoming a regular writer-showrunner on ENT).

The thing about Berman is that, while he was a somewhat mediocre writer-showrunner, he was utterly brilliant as a logistical producer, making Star Trek consistently the best-looking, best-made, and possibly best-acted TV production of its time. The franchise never would've risen to the heights it achieved without his masterful and meticulous production. It's unfortunate that he gets judged mainly for his writing contributions instead.

Harve Bennett is another on the movie side.

He was another writer-producer. I believe the logistical producing side was headed up by Robert Sallin on TWOK, Gary Nardino on TSFS, and Ralph Winter on TVH and TFF.

And of couse Roddenberry in the early days. It sounds like Kurtzman has taken on that role these days.

Not exactly. Running one show is different from running a production company that makes multiple shows at once, each with its own showrunner reporting to you. I guess that would be something more like what Quinn Martin did in the '60s, or Garry Marshall in the '70s. Roddenberry clearly aspired to that kind of multi-show success -- he tried to sell Assignment: Earth twice while ST was still on the air, and developed other pilots at the same time -- but he never got there.

I think the modern writing-room system is basically tailored to cultivate future showrunners and production executives, in a more systematic and formalized way than it was done in the past. You start out as an intern or staff writer, then gain experience to get promoted through the ranks of the writer's room from story editor to co-producer and up through the various producer ranks until you reach executive producer and finally get to run your own show, which entails incorporating your own production company (as seen in the vanity plates in the end credits of most shows), and if you're successful, then your company eventually ends up making multiple shows and you co-create and supervise them all but usually don't run any of them directly because you're too busy. But ideally you need a producing partner to handle the logistics and business of production so you can focus on the creative side.

 

[Damian]

The thing about Berman is that, while he was a somewhat mediocre writer-showrunner, he was utterly brilliant as a logistical producer, making Star Trek consistently the best-looking, best-made, and possibly best-acted TV production of its time. The franchise never would've risen to the heights it achieved without his masterful and meticulous production. It's unfortunate that he gets judged mainly for his writing contributions instead.

Thanks for the background. During the Berman era I started becoming more familiar with some of the other producers involved. You'd see some of the others involved in interviews and so forth (and of course on the special features on the series Blu-Ray/DVDs). That may come in time with the new group.

But I do agree about Berman, he sometimes gets a bad rap. I'll agree Voyager could have been better in some aspects, and when Enterprise started it may have been a bit TNG-lite (I still cringe a bit at the Ferengi episode, even though they managed to keep continuity mostly). But your right, one thing is he had enough smarts to realize Enterprise needed a new direction and he wasn't afraid to do something totally different with the 3rd season. In a way it was sort of a forerunner to what Discovery is doing now, and that continued somewhat into the 4th season with mini-arcs. And I guess people always remember the bad first. Look at Brannon Braga, a writer of some of the best episodes of Star Trek, and also co-writer of First Contact...and yet his epitaph will probably read: "Writer of 'Threshhold'".

What was unfortunate was Berman went out with 'These Are the Voyages", such an unfortunate way for his regime to end. Terra Prime would probably have been a much better way to leave things (even Archer's speech seemed a good closing). Or my idea was always to end with the opening salvos of the Romulan War, a sort of way to stick it to the eye of Paramount . Could you imagine fans then...YOU CAN'T END IT LIKE THAT

But I was all in during the Berman years too. I loved all the shows overall, and the movies mostly, including being one of the 10 people that liked Nemesis.

 

[Damian]

In fact, to loop it back to the nu-TNG show, we've been discussing the litverse impact, but hopefully they stay true to the character of Captain Picard as we saw in the show, a Berman production for many of it's years.

 

[Christopher]

But I do agree about Berman, he sometimes gets a bad rap. I'll agree Voyager could have been better in some aspects, and when Enterprise started it may have been a bit TNG-lite (I still cringe a bit at the Ferengi episode, even though they managed to keep continuity mostly). But your right, one thing is he had enough smarts to realize Enterprise needed a new direction and he wasn't afraid to do something totally different with the 3rd season.

You're still talking about the conceptual side. What I'm talking about, what Berman was brilliant at, was the execution -- the casting, the production design, the sets, the props and costumes, the makeup, the cinematography, the editing, the music, the visual effects, etc. (Okay, Berman gets fewer points on the music because of his fondness for non-melodic atmospheric scores, but at least he used a full orchestra throughout rather than synth, except in the last couple of seasons of ENT.) Even when the writing and concepts were weak, the execution was still top-notch and it was a gorgeous show to look at and listen to. And we owe that to Berman and his meticulous oversight of all of that.

 

[JD]

Oh boy, I thought Marlboro was serious . I never saw the 2 movies he cited. I guess now they were pretty lousy

Like Christopher pointed out though, it's kind of hard to really judge someone based on their movie scripts, since movie scriptwriting is such a mess. I think it's more fair to look at his TV credits, some of which I included in my last post.
It's also worth keeping in mind that he's not the person solely responsible for writing the show, if he's even involved on the creative side, there's an showrunner, an entire writer's room, and Patrick Stewart himself all playing a role in developing the story.
If I understand things correctly, even when an episode is credited to just one or two writers, it's not actually written by just by those two people, it's still put together by the entire writer's room, and I believe the showrunner's also give it a once over to help keep things consistent. So even if an episode is credited to Kurtzman, it was still worked on by people like Micheal Chabon and Kirsten Beyer.

 

[Damian]

You're still talking about the conceptual side. What I'm talking about, what Berman was brilliant at, was the execution -- the casting, the production design, the sets, the props and costumes, the makeup, the cinematography, the editing, the music, the visual effects, etc. (Okay, Berman gets fewer points on the music because of his fondness for non-melodic atmospheric scores, but at least he used a full orchestra throughout rather than synth, except in the last couple of seasons of ENT.) Even when the writing and concepts were weak, the execution was still top-notch and it was a gorgeous show to look at and listen to. And we owe that to Berman and his meticulous oversight of all of that.

Yeah, I guess you're right. I was thinking of the episodes from a story perspective. And yes, I agree, the special effects were always well executed. I liked the sets. I always complimented the production design of Enterprise because I thought they thread the needle very well there, making it more advanced than today, but somehow making it clear the NX-01 was less advanced then the original series Enterprise. When you think about it that wasn't an easy feat. It's something I find a bit lacking for the Discovery, as it looks way more advanced then the original series Enterprise. Zimmerman proved you could accomplish a balance. And some people complain Berman did not respect the original series era enough, but I thought they worked hard on Enterprise with the execution to make it as close to a century before the original series as possible--perhaps it took the stories a little longer to catch on to that idea, but the production side was pretty believable to me.

And my favorite warp effect was the streaking star effects from the Berman era.

And the other thing I always liked about the Berman era was the detailed thought that went into the designs. Zimmerman, Sternbach, Eaves, and all the others didn't just build something because it was cool looking, they actually tried to visualize a purpose. Why is that conduit there, what does this bridge station do, and the planetary sets were pretty good to. Now that shouldn't be confused with technobabble (though I never minded technobabble as long as it didn't overwhelm the story--which admittedly sometimes it did). They were just trying to build designs that made sense and looked believable to an extent. Berman had an eye for picking the right people.

Like Christopher pointed out though, it's kind of hard to really judge someone based on their movie scripts, since movie scriptwriting is such a mess. I think it's more fair to look at his TV credits, some of which I included in my last post.

I agree. I would at least wait to see something before making a judgment about it. I loved a number of Shyamalan movies for instance. But there's not question he lost his way for a bit. But I still went to see Split, and I thought it was a great movie. It would have been a shame if I held "The Last Airbender" or "After Earth" against him and not seen it. Everyone has a bad day, movie, book, whatever. Braga had his "Threshhold" but when you look at their entire history, you see more good than bad

 

[The Wormhole]

One thing I noticed with Discovery is just the sheer number of producers involved with it. In the credits I swear there are more producers listed in the opening then actors.

Another factor in Disco having so many producers listed in the credits is the behind the scenes drama going on resulting in so many of the producers initially hired leaving, replacements being hired, and they leaving and getting replaced. Their contracts specified they had to be credited for the whole season, and so we ended up with over twenty credited producers and execs. I think we can expect significantly less in the second season.

 

[Damian]

Another factor in Disco having so many producers listed in the credits is the behind the scenes drama going on resulting in so many of the producers initially hired leaving, replacements being hired, and they leaving and getting replaced. Their contracts specified they had to be credited for the whole season, and so we ended up with over twenty credited producers and execs. I think we can expect significantly less in the second season.

Yeah, true. And I remember TNG wasn't without a bit of chaos early on, people coming and going. Really the early years as Berman was put more in control it took a little while for things to settle in. There was still some people in and out during DS9, Voyager and Enterprise, but it was more controlled, people leaving or taking a consulting role once the show was underway. That may happen with Discovery and the new shows as well.

 

[Christopher]

If I understand things correctly, even when an episode is credited to just one or two writers, it's not actually written by just by those two people, it's still put together by the entire writer's room, and I believe the showrunner's also give it a once over to help keep things consistent. So even if an episode is credited to Kurtzman, it was still worked on by people like Micheal Chabon and Kirsten Beyer.

Yes, that's basically right. The whole room breaks (outlines) a story together, then it's assigned to one writer or team to script it, then it's revised with input from everyone in the room, and then the showrunner does a final polish of every script to ensure consistency of tone, character voices, etc. (Even before the modern writer's room system, Roddenberry usually did a final script polish on every TOS script, although I believe the final draft of "City on the Edge of Forever" was D.C. Fontana's.)

It's something I find a bit lacking for the Discovery, as it looks way more advanced then the original series Enterprise.

It should. The makers of TOS didn't want the ship to look like something from the 1960s; they wanted it to look like something from centuries in the future, but they were limited to 1960s technology in their approximation thereof. So to be true to their intent, a modern show should strive to look futuristic by today's standards. I certainly wouldn't mind if the DSC production design retained more of the aesthetics of TOS -- the use of shapes and colors and such -- but it only makes sense to modernize the tech.

People complain about the "anachronistic" use of holograms in DSC, but I recently noticed that the 1968 book The Making of Star Trek, which was written with the cooperation of TOS's production staff, mentioned that the Enterprise's recreation deck was supposed to include message booths that could project lifelike, immersive 3-dimensional images so that the crew's families could send them messages that would look like they were really there in the room. So the TOS Enterprise was always meant to have holographic communication; they just never managed to depict it onscreen. (I wonder why, though. It would've been quite easy to simulate a lifelike hologram just by having the actor there in the room, and using a simple jump cut to make them appear or disappear. And we saw similar things done with Landru, Losira, etc.) Plus the ship did have a holographic rec room in TAS: "The Practical Joker."

Another factor in Disco having so many producers listed in the credits is the behind the scenes drama going on resulting in so many of the producers initially hired leaving, replacements being hired, and they leaving and getting replaced. Their contracts specified they had to be credited for the whole season, and so we ended up with over twenty credited producers and execs.

I don't think that's quite true. I do recall seeing some names come and go over the course of the season. And as I said, fewer than half of those 20 producers were involved in the creative side; many of them were financial partners or production executives of the various companies connected to the production. Many shows these days have a similarly huge number of credited EPs; it's hardly unique to Discovery. The only reason DSC is the first Trek show to have that many EPs is because it's the first Trek show to be made in the modern era when such proliferation of EPs has become commonplace. The expense and complexity of modern TV production means that shows generally need to have multiple production companies and financing partners involved, and the people in charge of them all get EP credits in return. A lot of the time, the credit just means that the person makes money off the show.

 

[marlboro]

The Island.

Three rules that I live by:

1) Never get involved in a land war in Asia
2) Never play pool with a guy named after a state
3) Never trust the judgement of a writer who rips off The Clonus Horror.


"Calypso, which I have seen multiple people call the best Star Trek episode in decades."


This is the only Discovery related thing that I've watched. I thought it looked fantastic, but I didn't think the story was very original. Isn't it just the old "wounded/lost soldier has a budding romance with his caregiver" trope? I know it has the sci-fi veneer of his caregiver being an A.I. but that isn't all that original either. It just seems like two cliches sewn together with some very nice special effects.

Not that those old chestnuts can't be good. Even the hoariest of clichéd plots can be made entertaining with skillful writing.

 

[Damian]

It should. The makers of TOS didn't want the ship to look like something from the 1960s; they wanted it to look like something from centuries in the future, but they were limited to 1960s technology in their approximation thereof. So to be true to their intent, a modern show should strive to look futuristic by today's standards. I certainly wouldn't mind if the DSC production design retained more of the aesthetics of TOS -- the use of shapes and colors and such -- but it only makes sense to modernize the tech.

But Enterprise showed us you can make things look more modern but with a little creativity make it seem in a lot of ways less advanced then the original series. One obvious difference is the NX-01 had a max speed of warp 5, whereas the Discovery can be anywhere in a matter of seconds. Also, the corridors were a bit narrower, the bridge appeared smaller, with less stations. And it felt more confined then the original series Enterprise.

I don't mind Discovery appearing more advanced then today, and it should be more advanced then the NX-01. But the issue I have as far as trying to treat it as part of the original continuity is it's got way more advanced technology. It actually feels more advanced then the Enterprise-E. There is a balance you can strike, that Zimmerman proved was possible to do that it seems they decided to do away with in Discovery. But it's more than set design. There's a lot that makes me treat Discovery for the moment as a full reboot, and not try to mentally fit it in 10 years prior to the original series--(but I leave open the possibility I may have a change of heart) whereas I feel like I can fit Enterprise 100 years pre-original series to a reasonable degree.

I said on another post the only place on the ship that feels like it fits is the mess hall, and maybe sickbay. Part of the mess hall remind me of the NX-01 on a bigger scale, while parts remind me of the NCC-1701, namely the food slots. That's one area where it seems to have been a melding of the two designs.

It's not that I don't like Discovery. I'm not ready to say I love it yet, but I find I just enjoy it better if I treat it outside the Enterprise-to-Nemesis timeline. In fact it feels like it would be more natural as part of the Abramsverse continuity.