Neelix and his knowledge of the Vidiians

[Lynx]

I was re-watching Phage yesterday and I started to think about something that I haven't thought about before.

When Chakotay, Neelix and Kim are investigation an asteroid on which it's supposed to be a lot of dilithium, Neelix is attacked by an alien and his lungs are removed from his body.

At the end of the episode, it's revealed that the aliens are Vidiians who are suffering from an illness called The Phage and their only way to survive is to steal organs from other humanoids.

When I re-watched that episode yesterday, it struck me: How does it come that Neelix, who is a native to this part of space is not aware of the danger from the Vidiians?

In fact, he doesn't know anything about them! And that is strange!

If you look at the Star Charts maps by Geoffrey Mandel (a version with correction of some errors and additions of places mentioned in the Voyager books can be found on the Kes Website), the Vidiian controlled space is a huge part of the sector in which Voyager travels during its first two years in the Delta Quadrant.

Looking at those maps, it seems like Voyager is flying in a corridor between Kazon-controlled areas and Vidiian space in those forst two years, a corridor in which many independent worlds are located, among them Neelix's home planet Talax and it's moon Rinax which was destroyed by the Haakonians.

After the destruction of Rinax, Neelixt drifted around in the area, so far as to the Nekrit Expanse and them back to Kazon space and the kazon-Ogla on Ocampa. By doing such travels, he should have been aware of the Vidiians.

OK, we can assume that he traveled to the Nekrit Expanse and back through Kazon-controlled space and therefore never met any Vidiians. But he should at least have heard about them, especially since he actually was from a planet near Vidiian space. I mean, if alarge part of the space is inhabited by a species of organ snatchers, then everyone in that area and nearby should lnow about them.

Neelix also stated that "he flew past that dilithium planet three years ago". But he didn't know that it was in or close to Vidiian-controlled space. That's weird!

 

[Oddish]

Ot may be a "world under construction" inconsistency. Quite often, early in a series, the rules haven't quite been established yet.

However, considering how sloppy the Voyager showrunners were, it's possible they weren't bothering to be consistent.

 

[Orac]

Oddish is right. All that stuff hadn't been made up yet when the episode was written.

 

[at Quark's]

One thing is sure though, he certainly knew about them afterwards...

But I agree with the others, this is probably just a 'worldbuilding' error.

Come to think about it, it was an inconsistency that could have been very easily avoided. Just have the victim be someone else, someone who didn't heed Neelix' warnings (which, of course for the purposes of this episode would have been vague in order not to spoil everything), and ventured out too far on his own.

 

[Lynx]

Ot may be a "world under construction" inconsistency. Quite often, early in a series, the rules haven't quite been established yet.

However, considering how sloppy the Voyager showrunners were, it's possible they weren't bothering to be consistent.

Oddish is right. All that stuff hadn't been made up yet when the episode was written.

One thing is sure though, he certainly knew about them afterwards...

But I agree with the others, this is probably just a 'worldbuilding' error.

Come to think about it, it was an inconsistency that could have been very easily avoided. Just have the victim be someone else, someone who didn't heed Neelix' warnings (which, of course for the purposes of this episode would have been vague in order not to spoil everything), and ventured out too far on his own.

Most likely, it is like Oddish mentioned, a "world under construction inconsistency".

Obviously thet had no plans or ideas about the Vidiians, that they would actually last for at least two seasons in the series.

But I guess that the episode Faces where the Vidiians return must have been planed or already written when Phage was filmed.

And still, a species of organ snachers would be known in the area where Voyager was at that time, even if they had lived in a rather small area of space and surely Neelix should have heard about them.

And even if the episode would have had another victim than Neelix, the issue would still have been the same. As the expert on the area, Neelix who actually knew about the planet should have been aware of its presence in or near Vidiian space, sort of: "Well, I must warn you Captain, the planet is inside Vidiian space and they steal organs from others."

 

[at Quark's]

As the expert on the area, Neelix who actually knew about the planet should have been aware of its presence in or near Vidiian space, sort of: "Well, I must warn you Captain, the planet is inside Vidiian space and they steal organs from others."

Realistically, of course, yes.

For the purpose of the episode though, they could have made him say something like 'I must urge you to stay together at all times at the planet surface. There's quite a number of extremely dangerous species roaming in this stellar neighbourhood.' (the number of possible threats dismissing him from specifying exactly which threats onscreen.) (I'm not sure, but I don't think it's established the planet is actually in Vidiian Space, just in the general area where they like to have their harvesting raids).

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

I think there was also this sense in the earliest episodes of Voyager that Neelix... exaggerated his knowledge base, by a lot. That a lot of Neelix's efforts at guiding Voyager were more him BSing his way through matters. His original characterization had him as a bit of a scoundrel and a rogue, and he is introduced basically using Voyager to trick the Kazon and get Kes away from them, without giving the Voyager crew any idea of his intentions. And he does keep his ship on hand through Voyager's journey, which implies a sense that he could have been put off ship at any point (or at least that he believed this was possible, even if Voyager wouldn't do that).

Like in the original writer outlines, Neelix was expected to be the "outsider looking in on humanity" perspective character that the Doctor evolved in to, which could have been utilized in a way of "he's no where near as knowledgeable as he claims, but believes that if he doesn't have a purpose on Voyager, he'll be kicked off the ship" storyline, before the writing seemed to just... give up on him. I mean, we do see shades of that during "Fair Trade," when they reach the Nekrit Expanse and the extent of his actual knowledge of space, believing that he'd have no further use for the crew once they enter it.

 

[Finn]

Looking at those maps, it seems like Voyager is flying in a corridor between Kazon-controlled areas and Vidiian space in those forst two years, a corridor in which many independent worlds are located, among them Neelix's home planet Talax and it's moon Rinax which was destroyed by the Haakonians.

After the destruction of Rinax, Neelixt drifted around in the area, so far as to the Nekrit Expanse and them back to Kazon space and the kazon-Ogla on Ocampa. By doing such travels, he should have been aware of the Vidiians.

OK, we can assume that he traveled to the Nekrit Expanse and back through Kazon-controlled space and therefore never met any Vidiians. But he should at least have heard about them, especially since he actually was from a planet near Vidiian space. I mean, if alarge part of the space is inhabited by a species of organ snatchers, then everyone in that area and nearby should lnow about them.

Neelix also stated that "he flew past that dilithium planet three years ago". But he didn't know that it was in or close to Vidiian-controlled space. That's weird!

When was it said he had been to the Nekrit Expanse? He just heard of it and the existence of a station. He had no idea about the station commander. I think he had been there forever and Neelix appeared unfamiliar with him...

 

[Lynx]

When was it said he had been to the Nekrit Expanse? He just heard of it and the existence of a station. He had no idea about the station commander. I think he had been there forever and Neelix appeared unfamiliar with him...

Neelix hadn't been to the station and therefore didn't know of its exact location and Commander Bahrat.

But Ubea where Wixiban was captured and sentenced to jail did seem to be not so far away from the station since Wixiban did seem to be trapped in that area of space and lacked what was necessary to get away from there.

On Geoffrey Mandel's Star Charts, Ubea is located rather near Bahrat's station.

However, there are errors here and there on those maps, like Talax and Rinax being located in a total wrong direction from Voyager's route which would have made it impossible for Voyager to reach Talax and Rinax like they did in the episode Jetrel.

I have made some efforts to correct those errors on the copies of those maps which I have on The Kes Website, like "moving" Talax and Rinax to a place in the direction Voyager was traveling to a place which fits the timeline for the series and also corrected some Stardate errors and added planets and such which are mentioned in the Voyager books.

However, Ubea is still were it is on the original maps. I have to look at this episode again and see if I find a reason to "relocate" it!

 

[FederationHistorian]

Is it possible that Neelix simply underestimated the Vidiians? And thus, never gave them much thought?

At the start of the series, the Kazon are the ones positioned to be the big bad in the series. And considering their hostility towards the Ocampa, maybe Neelix was thinking about protecting Kes from the Kazon first. Had it been the Vidiians that were hostile to the Ocampa, Neelix would be wary of them instead.

 

[Lynx]

Is it possible that Neelix simply underestimated the Vidiians? And thus, never gave them much thought?

At the start of the series, the Kazon are the ones positioned to be the big bad in the series. And considering their hostility towards the Ocampa, maybe Neelix was thinking about protecting Kes from the Kazon first. Had it been the Vidiians that were hostile to the Ocampa, Neelix would be wary of them instead.

That's possible.

But he should at least have known about the Vidiians, like:
"Captain, we must be careful in this are because it's close to a nasty species which steals organs. I've never met them myself but I have heard horrible stories about them."

 

[at Quark's]

I think there was also this sense in the earliest episodes of Voyager that Neelix... exaggerated his knowledge base, by a lot. That a lot of Neelix's efforts at guiding Voyager were more him BSing his way through matters. His original characterization had him as a bit of a scoundrel and a rogue, and he is introduced basically using Voyager to trick the Kazon and get Kes away from them, without giving the Voyager crew any idea of his intentions. And he does keep his ship on hand through Voyager's journey, which implies a sense that he could have been put off ship at any point (or at least that he believed this was possible, even if Voyager wouldn't do that).

Like in the original writer outlines, Neelix was expected to be the "outsider looking in on humanity" perspective character that the Doctor evolved in to, which could have been utilized in a way of "he's no where near as knowledgeable as he claims, but believes that if he doesn't have a purpose on Voyager, he'll be kicked off the ship" storyline, before the writing seemed to just... give up on him. I mean, we do see shades of that during "Fair Trade," when they reach the Nekrit Expanse and the extent of his actual knowledge of space, believing that he'd have no further use for the crew once they enter it.

True, I fully believe Neelix was supposed to not nearly be a knowledgeable as he pretended to be.

Then again, assuming the Vidiians really were such a menace in that area, you'd expect anyone from that region of space to know about them. So the conclusion I'd reach would be that either their numbers are quite low (which wouldn't be surprising after 2000 years of the Phage), or they are scattered over a huge 'foraging' territory.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

I don't know how in the universe this never occurred to me. It's downright bizarre, given that Neelix was really pushing hard to be the ship's guide at that point in the series.

 

[somebuddyX]

Maybe Neelix never learned about Vidiians because everyone who ran into them got their organs harvested and they died.
But really, yeah, I don't think the writers considered it, but I don't mean that in a condemnation way. I think it just got past them.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Neelix hadn't been to the station and therefore didn't know of its exact location and Commander Bahrat.

But Ubea where Wixiban was captured and sentenced to jail did seem to be not so far away from the station since Wixiban did seem to be trapped in that area of space and lacked what was necessary to get away from there.

On Geoffrey Mandel's Star Charts, Ubea is located rather near Bahrat's station.

However, there are errors here and there on those maps, like Talax and Rinax being located in a total wrong direction from Voyager's route which would have made it impossible for Voyager to reach Talax and Rinax like they did in the episode Jetrel.

I have made some efforts to correct those errors on the copies of those maps which I have on The Kes Website, like "moving" Talax and Rinax to a place in the direction Voyager was traveling to a place which fits the timeline for the series and also corrected some Stardate errors and added planets and such which are mentioned in the Voyager books.

However, Ubea is still were it is on the original maps. I have to look at this episode again and see if I find a reason to "relocate" it!

In Jetrel it's heavily implied that Talax is behind Voyager or at the very least not on the route Voyager was travelling towards the Alpha Quadrant. Chakotay states that it's a 'significant detour' when Janeway orders a course set for the Talaxian system.

 

[Lynx]

In Jetrel it's heavily implied that Talax is behind Voyager or at the very least not on the route Voyager was travelling towards the Alpha Quadrant. Chakotay states that it's a 'significant detour' when Janeway orders a course set for the Talaxian system.

Yes, it is stated that it is a significant detour to get there.

But it's not stated that they have to go all the way back to Ocampa and beyond that planet to get to Talax.


Voyager's path on the Star Charts doesn't show such a detour either, it only has Talax located in a wrong place.

If you go to the Kes Website at https://www.lynx677.tk/ and to the page Maps and follow Voyager's route in season 1 in my edited version of the Star Charts, you can see my solution for the problem. It's adapted to the timeline of Voyager.

Unfortunately the whole Hakoonian Order is in the wrong place on the original maps and I haven't found a good solution for that problem.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

If the Star Charts seem to contradict what it shown in Voyager, then it's the charts that are wrong. But space is really really big and I can easily believe that Neelix's knowledge is incomplete or out of date.

 

[Lynx]

If the Star Charts seem to contradict what it shown in Voyager, then it's the charts that are wrong. But space is really really big and I can easily believe that Neelix's knowledge is incomplete or out of date.

My opinion is that Star Charts are wrong in this case.

There's no way that Voyager would travel all the way back to Ocampa and beyond that to find Talax and Voyager's route on the Star Charts and actual Stardates contradict such events.

At least when it comes to Voyager, there are some small errors here and there.

I wish that an edited version of the book would come out.

Unfortunately, such a book would also cover certain events in recent series and movies and I'm not interested in that.

As for the Star Charts and the Voyager Timeline on the Kes website, i've taken the liberty to make a few changes there.

Like the example with Talax which I have placed in the right position compared to other events and places in the series.

Certain official Stardates are also a bit dubious. I took the liberty to change some of those.


I changed the official Stardate for the episode Parallax from Stardate 48439.7 (which is Thursday 10 Jun 2371) to 48393.7 (which is Tuesday 4 May 2371) because The events in Caretaker takes place between Stardates 48308.2 and 48315.6 (which are Friday 23 April 2321 and Monday 26 April 2321) and I can't imagine that it would take Janeway more than a month to decide who would be Chief Engineer.

I've also changed the official Stardates for the episodes Maneuvers, Investigations and Before And After. The stardates for those episodes are completly wrong and don't fit into the order of the episodes.

OK, all this information is a bit off-topic and may look as some advertise for the Kes Website and my work with it.

But I had to mention it because all of it shows some of the contradictions and wrong things which can be found in the series, not only in the Star Charts book.