Nazi's in Outer Space

[DevilEyes]

And the Occupation of Bajor is only a loose parallel to the Holocaust perhaps, but there are some similarities. The Nazis thought that the Jews were inferior. The Cardassians thought that the Bajorans were inferior. The Nazis used Jews and other they deemed undesirables in death camps. So did the Cardassians. Other aspects of the real-life Holocaust that the Nazis did were explained on screen as part of the Bajoran occupation.

The fact that it's not a perfect match doesn't mean there are some similarities.

The Nazis didn't just see the Jews as inferior. They saw every other ethnicity as inferior to Germans. The Jews were at the very bottom of the list of the inferior races, and they weren't just considered inferior and fit to be slaves; they were considered dangerous vermin which was to be exterminated. Final Solution was the state policy. There was no such policy on Cardassia towards Bajorans.

The theory of inferior and superior races was hardly the invention of the Nazis - they just brought it to the extreme. Scientific racism existed centuries earlier, and was very influential in the 19th century. It was used to justify slavery, as black Africans were pronounced fit for slavery because of their "primitive psychology" and general inferiority to the white race. Antisemitism was also rampant. Racial theory talked about the so-called "Nordic race" as the one responsible for the development of the Western civilization. It wasn't uncommon to display black Africans as animals in cages - World Fair 1889, for instance, had a "Negro village" as a major attraction - and they were often presented as a "missing link" between apes and humans.

You know what really pisses me off? It's not the fact that everyone keeps comparing Cardassians to Nazis even when the parallel really doesn't work. It's because it's a huge, dishonest cop-out. I know why people, including the show's writers, compare Cardassians (or their military, etc.) to Nazis. Because Nazis are today synonymous with evil, and Hitler is synonymous with Satan. Comparing someone with Hitler/the Nazis today, is the same thing as comparing someone with Lucifer and the demons in the Middle Ages. It's just a way to say "they are really evil, the worst of the worst" in an effective and safe way, because pretty much everyone in today's world, apart from a tiny minority of sickos, acknowledges that nazism and fascism was evil. But mention some other historical example of genocide, colonialism, exploitation, slavery, and you can actually cause controversy. (As seen in my "USS Cortez? Really?" thread. "Hitler was evil". Duh. Everyone knows that. "OK, let's talk about Cortez instead, that's more interesting". A can of worms opens...) And that's what really pisses me off - when people act like nazism was some sort of aberration that came out of nowhere and had nothing to do with the human history that came before, rather than what it really was, an extension and culmination of a long history of racism, imperialism and exploitation. No, let's just pretend none of that ever existed. Much more comfortable that way.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I don't pretend that no other wrongs ever existed, personally. Just because I see the Nazi/Stalinist parallels doesn't mean I ignore everything else that has gone wrong in the world.

Personally, when it comes to the way the Cardassians are written--and what I hope I can continue--I think we get to see distinct individuals as they are. You have your thugs, dictators, and sycophants...but we also get to see what the society underneath the regime was like, and some very good examples of what a Cardassian can be. I think that's part of why I tend to go with the Russia image more...growing up, I definitely heard about how the Communists, and the people in power, were dangerous, but I also remember hearing a lot about so many good Russians suffered under that regime, too. If you ever read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago (or if you don't have so much time on your hands, One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich), you get to see that as well--the clear split between the government and the people.

That's how it is with Cardassia, too.

 

[Timo]

Cardassian society is based on subservience to the state, and that the individual must be secondary to the state. This is by the by the definition of fascism.

That's totalitarianism. Fascism? That's what they had in Mussolini's Italy.

During and after WWII, "fascism" became a generic insult that might just as well be considered synonymous to totalitarianism now. But it was a very specific political ideology - so specific in fact that it's pretty absurd to say that the Germans were fascists at any point. They were Nazist and considered themselves that, Mussolini was fascist and considered himself that. Their enemies were not so subtle, and did not differentiate between fascism and the German ideology du jour.

It's a bit like saying that republicanism in the political scheme of the United States is imperialism. There's a historical justification of sorts for that, in that republicanism once supported vaguely imperialistic actions - and another justification in that republican US governments were systematically referred to as imperialistic by the foes of the US. That doesn't really mean that "republicanism=imperialism" would be a true statement. The difference lies basically in that republicans are free to dispute the terminology, whereas those labeled fascist are either not free, not interested, or not extant any more.

"German fascism" is a concept of the English language. There was no German equivalent to that at the time of Nazism... (Or a Spanish equivalent at the time of Falangism.) The basis in political science exists for seeing a good correlation between fascism and Nazism, but this should not be confused with conceptual equivalence, let alone with a historical one.

ObTrek: Cardassians as portrayed in DS9 are not fascist by a long shot. They're very totalitarian, though. I wonder if their ideology at the time of DS9 had a native name? OTOH, even if it did, the ideology might well be closer to a thousand years old, and the name might have fallen in disuse. And the Universal Translator would probably mangle it into something else anyway. Fascism, probably...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

I find it quite amusing that the OP wasn't even talking about Cardassians...
Devil Eyes, I don't think it's a cop-out at all to compare Cardassians to Nazis. To me, every race in Star Trek represents or is based on some part of humanity's psyche...Ferengi the greedy, materialistic part of humanity, Klingons the agressive, violent, warfaring part of humanity, Bajorans the passionately religious part of humanity...So those comparisons are okay, but comparing the Cardassian government to Nazis or other totalitarian regimes isn't? What's the difference?
I do agree, though, with what you said about Nazis and Hitler and other atrocities. Hitler has become an 'iconic' example but he's not the only one.

 

[Grant]

Timo is a bigot toward Germans. Never misses a chance to bash them.

Even once took a shot a Lt. Jeager from 'Squire of Gothos.'

 

[ares93]

Timo is a bigot toward Germans. Never misses a chance to bash them.

Even once took a shot a Lt. Jeager from 'Squire of Gothos.'

and i though i was the only one who noticed...

 

[Timo]

Ah, I do retract my above rant if some Germans feel insulted that they can't call themselves fascists...

But really, is there evidence of any organization or individual from pre-1945 Germany considering it-, her- or himself "fascist" (outside the possible context of sympathizing with Mussolini's specific cause, I mean)?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ares93]

Ah, I do retract my above rant if some Germans feel insulted that they can't call themselves fascists...

But really, is there evidence of any organization or individual from pre-1945 Germany considering it-, her- or himself "fascist" (outside the possible context of sympathizing with Mussolini's specific cause, I mean)?

Timo Saloniemi

No, thats not the point. you keep implying that germans are fascists. first germany had nazism, not fascism. and second it was bloody 70 years ago. third, even then. not all germans were nazi's. and neither are everyone today.

Quite frankly i dont give a shit what you think of germans, just don't keep ranting about how much you hate them.
why dont we just close this matter and agree that we cant agree?

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Just because there were more uses the makers of the show (to their credit) put Cardassians to than merely functioning as an analogue to the totalitarian regimes of Earth's 20th century--including the Nazis--doesn't mean that wasn't one use they did put them to. I certainly think it's obvious that it was.

And let's not get too indignant about "stereotyping" a fictional race. By their very nature fictional cultures are less complex and varied than real ones and that's as it should be, especially in Trek where various alien species represent various aspects of humanity. It's not so much a case of stereotyping as archetyping. (Though again, to the credit of the writers, from time to time the opportunity was taken to examine and question the depth and validity of those archetypes as well.)

 

[Photon]

Ah, I do retract my above rant if some Germans feel insulted that they can't call themselves fascists...

But really, is there evidence of any organization or individual from pre-1945 Germany considering it-, her- or himself "fascist" (outside the possible context of sympathizing with Mussolini's specific cause, I mean)?

Timo Saloniemi

I hope you feel the same toward Stalin's and Mao's regimes.

 

[TerokNor]

I think Cardassians have some parts that show connections to Nazi- Germany, but after reading around on this Board and thinking about it some more, they have connections to other past events of earth as well, not only Nazi-Germany.

As for Nazi-Germany, Germany and Germans in general... PLEASE no putting everyone in one pot and mixing past and present together! Thank you.

TerokNor

 

[DevilEyes]

I find it quite amusing that the OP wasn't even talking about Cardassians...
Devil Eyes, I don't think it's a cop-out at all to compare Cardassians to Nazis. To me, every race in Star Trek represents or is based on some part of humanity's psyche...Ferengi the greedy, materialistic part of humanity, Klingons the agressive, violent, warfaring part of humanity, Bajorans the passionately religious part of humanity...So those comparisons are okay, but comparing the Cardassian government to Nazis or other totalitarian regimes isn't? What's the difference?
I do agree, though, with what you said about Nazis and Hitler and other atrocities. Hitler has become an 'iconic' example but he's not the only one.

There is no doubt that Third Reich is one of the real life examples that comes to mind when you think about the depiction of Cardassia - a militaristic, imperialistic totalitarian state invading other states - but it becomes a bit silly when people seem unable to think of any other real world comparison, or insist that this is the one and only real life parallel, even in cases where it doesn't work (like certain posters who keep insisting that "Bajorans are Jews and Cardassians are nazis" and this is the "only true interpretation of the show" - even though it's easy to see why that doesn't work at all, as I pointed out on page 1). Then it seems like people can't think of any other example of imperialism or racial oppression... as if nazi Germany was this abberation from the otherwise wonderful human history of progress and tolerance. That feels like a cop-out - it's easy to just invoke the nazis, instead of having the fictional story provoke more challenging and potentially more controversial debates.

Just because there were more uses the makers of the show (to their credit) put Cardassians to than merely functioning as an analogue to the totalitarian regimes of Earth's 20th century--including the Nazis--doesn't mean that wasn't one use they did put them to. I certainly think it's obvious that it was.

And let's not get too indignant about "stereotyping" a fictional race. By their very nature fictional cultures are less complex and varied than real ones and that's as it should be, especially in Trek where various alien species represent various aspects of humanity. It's not so much a case of stereotyping as archetyping. (Though again, to the credit of the writers, from time to time the opportunity was taken to examine and question the depth and validity of those archetypes as well.)

No, it is not "as it should be". It should not. It is a) stupid, since this is not how it works in real life, and it insults the viewer's intelligence by "keeping it simple" and b) it has very unfortunate implications - the idea that entire groups of people with a common ancestry can all be homogenous, implies that the same can be applied to real life groups of people (ethnic, national); and if you show every member of a race as the same, it ultimately implies that people are genetically predisposed to be aggressive or peaceful, greedy or generous, "good" or "evil". So, I'm sorry, but I will be indignant over stereotyping an entire fictional race. I think there's an excellent reason to be indignant over stereotyping an entire fictional race, since this implies - whether you intended it or not - that it makes sense to stereotype entire real races (ethnic groups, nationalities...).

Fortunately, most of Trek writers (DS9 ones, certainly) were smart enough to realize that, and to portray members of alien races as individuals: if we started off with an alien race as "archetype" of a certain element of humanity, we later get to see that they are in fact different individuals, and that some completely defy the stereotype - which is a neat way to explore the issues of culture and racial/ethnic stereotyping.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

There is no doubt that Third Reich is one of the real life examples that comes to mind when you think about the depiction of Cardassia - a militaristic, imperialistic totalitarian state invading other states - but it becomes a bit silly when people seem unable to think of any other real world comparison, or insist that this is the one and only real life parallel, even in cases where it doesn't work (like certain posters who keep insisting that "Bajorans are Jews and Cardassians are nazis" and this is the "only true interpretation of the show" - even though it's easy to see why that doesn't work at all, as I pointed out on page 1). Then it seems like people can't think of any other example of imperialism or racial oppression... as if nazi Germany was this abberation from the otherwise wonderful human history of progress and tolerance. That feels like a cop-out - it's easy to just invoke the nazis, instead of having the fictional story provoke more challenging and potentially more controversial debates.

You're right, and like I said in my post it's the totalitarian/oppressive part of human history - not necessarily any specific government - that is represented by the Cardassian GOVERNMENT, not all of it's citizens.

this implies - whether you intended it or not - that it makes sense to stereotype entire real races (ethnic groups, nationalities...).
Fortunately, most of Trek writers (DS9 ones, certainly) were smart enough to realize that, and to portray members of alien races as individuals: if we started off with an alien race as "archetype" of a certain element of humanity, we later get to see that they are in fact different individuals, and that some completely defy the stereotype - which is a neat way to explore the issues of culture and racial/ethnic stereotyping.

Uh-huh, I hear you...the IDEA behind a race may fit into an archetype or stereotype, however you describe it, but there are always those who break the mold. Stereotypes actually make for boring storytelling - DS9 did a wonderful job of taking stereotypes apart and making everyone an individual.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

There is no doubt that Third Reich is one of the real life examples that comes to mind when you think about the depiction of Cardassia

That is exactly right. And this is not an accident...the writers/producers knew perfectly well that this association would be raised in the minds of the audience, and this was one of a number of factors that played into how the Cardassians were used within the show.

but it becomes a bit silly when people seem unable to think of any other real world comparison, or insist that this is the one and only real life parallel even in cases where it doesn't work

That indeed would be silly. But I don't really see anyone in this discussion doing that. Seems like pretty much everyone is saying it includes that, but isn't limited to it.

(like certain posters who keep insisting that "Bajorans are Jews and Cardassians are nazis" and this is the "only true interpretation of the show" - even though it's easy to see why that doesn't work at all, as I pointed out on page 1).

Once again, I didn't see anyone say it was the only true interpretation. You are absolutely right that there's a lot more to the Cardassian/Bajoran dynamic than being a mere Nazi/Jew parallel and anyone who doesn't recognize that is not paying attention. However, it does seem to me that such a parallel was drawn in a number of episodes. ("Duet," "The Collaborator," "Things Past," "Wrongs Darker Than Death Or Night," "Waltz," "Nothing Human" [VGR], etc.)

Then it seems like people can't think of any other example of imperialism or racial oppression... as if nazi Germany was this abberation from the otherwise wonderful human history of progress and tolerance.

On the contrary, there have been other examples raised in this very thread. But given that we're talking about an American television show of the late 20th century, and given that World War II and the precursors/aftermath thereof had a more overwhelming role in shaping that century than any other set of events, and given that the Nazis and the Holocaust they perpetrated were very pronounced and memorable features of that historical landscape, it makes sense that they'd be among the first things that would jump to mind.

That feels like a cop-out - it's easy to just invoke the nazis, instead of having the fictional story provoke more challenging and potentially more controversial debates.

You seem to think that anyone who invokes the Nazis equates them with "pure evil," which I don't believe is the case. That in itself is a simplistic and inaccurate way of characterizing them. They were flawed humans like all of us, hungry for order in the midst of great chaos, led astray by an unstable leader in whom they made the mistake of placing blind faith and absolute authority. They were responsible for some of the foulest atrocities known to human history, but they were just men and women like you and I, not pure evil. (If there even is such a thing, which to my mind is very questionable.)

Just because there were more uses the makers of the show (to their credit) put Cardassians to than merely functioning as an analogue to the totalitarian regimes of Earth's 20th century--including the Nazis--doesn't mean that wasn't one use they did put them to. I certainly think it's obvious that it was.

And let's not get too indignant about "stereotyping" a fictional race. By their very nature fictional cultures are less complex and varied than real ones and that's as it should be, especially in Trek where various alien species represent various aspects of humanity. It's not so much a case of stereotyping as archetyping. (Though again, to the credit of the writers, from time to time the opportunity was taken to examine and question the depth and validity of those archetypes as well.)

No, it is not "as it should be".

Perhaps I should have said "must be." It is impossible, no matter how hard one tries, to create a fictional culture that is as varied and complex as one that actually exists and has developed through centuries or millennia of history. You can certainly take steps to create the illusion that your invented culture is that complex, but it's only an illusion. There is no way any group of writers could conceive and detail the immense if not infinite diversity and complexity of a real culture.

But you know what? They don't need to, because that isn't the point of fiction. Characters are not people. They are constructs, representations that incorporate select characteristics, the purpose of which is to facilitate the telling of a story. If you want reality, there's only one place to find it. Fiction at best suggests reality, but it isn't reality; it can't be and needn't be.

Fortunately, most of Trek writers (DS9 ones, certainly) were smart enough to realize that, and to portray members of alien races as individuals: if we started off with an alien race as "archetype" of a certain element of humanity, we later get to see that they are in fact different individuals, and that some completely defy the stereotype - which is a neat way to explore the issues of culture and racial/ethnic stereotyping.

Agreed 100%

 

[DevilEyes]

but it becomes a bit silly when people seem unable to think of any other real world comparison, or insist that this is the one and only real life parallel even in cases where it doesn't work

That indeed would be silly. But I don't really see anyone in this discussion doing that. Seems like pretty much everyone is saying it includes that, but isn't limited to it.

Once again, I didn't see anyone say it was the only true interpretation.

I can think of at least two posters who are very adamant about that: stj, who literally said that in General Trek:

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=107679&highlight=relatable&page=4

Stj--I don't recall the Cardies sporting swastikas, killing Jews, or invading the Soviet Union.

Why post in response to my post while ignoring my advice to see Duet? You have no case. Cardassians are Nazis. Saying they have to sport swastikas or kill Jews is fatuously literal. The funny part is that the Cardassians did sign a nonaggression pact with the Soviet Union (ahem, Dominion.) Which fact shows your opinion to be particularly obtuse.

Again, watch Duet. Cardassians=Nazis. And Bajorans=Jews. Remember Ensign Ro? As for one to one comparisons with WWII, why, of course not: There is no equivalent to Bajor or the wormhole. Conservatives argue that the Nazi/Soviet pact led to Germany's downfall, as it did in the series. It was the USSR that turned on the Nazis in the DS9 version, which is yet another variation preventing one to one comparisons, of course. But that reflects conservative opinions about the greater evil of communism.

I repeat--insisting the Cardassians=Nazis and Bajorans=Jews can only be correct if there is a literal one to one correspondence is stupid. Since neither Cardassians, Bajorans, Nazis and Jews are numerical quantities nor algebraic variables, the equals sign is plainly a metaphor. But even if one is foolish enough to take it literally, it still applies to Duet and Ensign Ro. There are no other tenable analog, or even interpretations, for those key early episodes. If you dismiss them, you might as well dismiss the entire DS9 series.
.

Your problem is that you can't make any useful comparisons between Kira, her religion and her personal history with anything besides Nazis and Jews. There's nothing in real world history that makes her peculiar character more understandable. There are no other analogies that can enlighten us as to how her character is more consistent and more believable, hence more relatable. You can't even cite that episode where Bajor was retconned with a caste system because it's inconsistent with the opening of the series!

You yourself are well aware that, as Kira is basically a Jew, that she would be in a quandary when confronted with a non-Jewish Messiah. That is why you accept that a supposedly devout person would act the way she does. Accepting the Bajoran=Jew increses understanding of the show. And this example shows why drivel about how Bajorans can't be equated with Jews is just a way of falsifying the series.

and Zameaze in the "Bajorans, yay or nay" thread:

Bajorans are Jews, Cardassians are Nazis--what would happen if they were forced to work together? Boring, boring, boring.

You seem to think that anyone who invokes the Nazis equates them with "pure evil," which I don't believe is the case. That in itself is a simplistic and inaccurate way of characterizing them. They were flawed humans like all of us, hungry for order in the midst of great chaos, led astray by an unstable leader in whom they made the mistake of placing blind faith and absolute authority. They were responsible for some of the foulest atrocities known to human history, but they were just men and women like you and I, not pure evil. (If there even is such a thing, which to my mind is very questionable.)

Agreed 100%. But I wasn't saying that, what I was saying is that the Nazi comparison is always the easiest to make because it invokes a strong response and carries the obvious connotations of evil, genocidal, oppressive, etc. - and is unlikely to be questioned or cause controversy.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Ah, I hadn't read or participated in those other threads, only this one.

So, to sum up...anyone who claims the Cardassians/Bajorans can't possibly be seen in any context beyond Nazi/Jew analogues is just as mistaken as anyone who claims they can't be seen in that context at all. Agreed?

 

[DevilEyes]

^ Agreed.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

^ I agree too.

 

[Cornholio]

the Nazis in other Trek series' were just a metaphor for evil, malevolent people. that being the case, DS9 had more "Nazis in outer space" than any other Trek series.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

^Yes...it did.