Nacelle "Line of Sight": Canon or Not?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by t_smitts, Oct 21, 2017.

  1. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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  2. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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  3. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    That's why I posted Orthos. Perspective shots can be misleading
     
  4. Tallguy

    Tallguy Commodore Commodore

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    For some reason from TMP to early days of TNG there was a decision that shuttles weren't warp capable. (That's why Spock's shuttle in TMP needed that ginormous sled.)

    Despite all plot points indicating that these were warp capable craft.

    I've been having variations of this argument since back when the Federation military used money! ;)
     
  5. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    That was also the silly time period where the WF^3 idea was really touted.
    Folks then just wanted TOS to be slooooow
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, I'm saying that many, many alien ships were introduced, but only the Warbird has line-of-sight. That's a correct statement, while yours haven't been so far. I gave you a more or less complete list of the early alien ships; you can count the percentage represented by the Warbird if you wish.

    No, the Ferengi model doesn't have nacelles and doesn't enjoy line-of-sight between her glowing bits. Those look down; whatever minimal angling there is doesn't give even lip service to this absurd "rule".

    False. The blue-glowing bits are obscured by the belly; only the opaque bottom halves sort of peek at each other.

    As stated above, they really tried to pretend these shuttles couldn't do warp, and indeed never showed them at warp in TNG. Fortunately, they did a piss-poor job at pretending, and thus nothing in TNG ever actually establishes the shuttles as warp-incapable.

    In contrast, the Type 15 shuttlepod was declared warp-incapable in a bit of admittedly ambiguous dialogue, despite her obvious nacelles, and an Okudagram dubbed those "impulse" nacelles later on. But happily, nothing as silly ever happened to the full-sized shuttles. Although the matter stands that Type 7 was never seen at warp and never shown traveling from star to star (that is, she got around, but we could always pretend she had been launched from relatively close to the destination - if we for some reason wanted to carry on that odd pretense of Probert and pals).

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. The Librarian

    The Librarian Commodore Commodore

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    We've seen both types of shuttles used in TNG for interstellar trips even if never with the star-streak FX, so clearly they're warp capable. Same as the TOS shuttle, really.
     
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  8. Matthew Raymond

    Matthew Raymond Captain Captain

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    You have yet to give one example of a ship in the first two seasons with either obvious warp nacelles or explicitly-stated warp drive that lacks line of sight or has an odd number of engines.
    Andrew Probert says he designed that ship, and that it DOES have line of sight:

    Also, I seem to remember from a scale model that the underside is curved as he states.
    No, you've been fooled by "The Amazing Transmorphing Shuttle". ;)
     
  9. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Doesn't matter what he says. The model does not have a sufficiently curved underside and thus it does not have LoS. Photographic evidence always beats witness testimony.
     
  10. Matthew Raymond

    Matthew Raymond Captain Captain

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    He's credited as the designer of the ship in question, and it doesn't matter what he says?!?
    What photographs are you referring to? They has a photo showing the curvature of the bottom of the ship in the YouTube video. Even if you don't feel that's a sufficient picture, look at the footage in the Trekyards' D'Kora Class episode (time index 3:50):
     
  11. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Not when it's contradicted by the actual filming models or other on-screen evidence, no.

    All of them? The Marauder model has an almost flat bottom. Probert might have sketched something curvier, but that's not what got built and shot. The D'Kora, as shot, has less LOS than even the Defiant. This is a really weird hill to die on. Not sure why you keep insisting on something that clearly isn't there.

    Also, please stop reposting your video. You've thrown it up here already. It convinced no one. Reposting is like copy-pasting your own argument over and over again. Bad etiquette.
     
  12. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The grills don't need to be face on, but still the Marauder underside grills have 100% line of sight with each other, if only barely and at an odd angle. But there is nothing in their way.
     
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  13. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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  14. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The version seen in Inside Man was the CGI version, not the studio model. The real model had more curve to it as seen earlier this thread.
     
  15. Matthew Raymond

    Matthew Raymond Captain Captain

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    They're completely different videos. The first one I posted was the second part of an interview about the Starship Design Rules we're discussing in this thread. The second video is an earlier video Trekyards did specifically on the Ferengi D'Kora class ship.
     
  16. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Again, TNG model was shot with a wide angle lens. So you really can't tell what's curved and what isn't because the lens distorts the shape.

    Specifically, their composition elongates the central "neck/head" while making the peripheral sections seem to wrap around the center point of the frame.

    I'm open to the idea that the CG and miniature models were markedly different (it happens) but those frames aren't proof due to how they were shot.

    Sorry then. They looked the same. I rarely watch videos in posts anyway, especially when OP doesn't provide time stamp or text of relevant moment.

    Either way, I'm not sure I even get the point being argued. LOS was, at most, observed on the Warbird, Vorcha and maybe, kinda on the Marauder. Thats not a strong argument that it's obligatory.

    I think the far better argument is "that's just something Gene said to f*** over Franz Joseph and his posh licensing deal.

    EDITED due to autocorrect turning Vorcha into gotcha.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
  17. Matthew Raymond

    Matthew Raymond Captain Captain

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    For the first video, the part I wanted people to see was within the very first minute (including the introduction), so I didn't feel the need for a time index. Sadly, this forum will take a YouTube URL with a time stamp and turn it into an embedded video WITHOUT at timestamp, so I had to include the time separately for the second video. Frankly, I'd rather the forum not convert YouTube links at all. The forum has a special tag and button for embedded videos, so it isn't necessary.
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, I don't. I'm just calling bullshit on your claim that "all the early TNG alien ships obeyed the rule". The rule simply does not apply at all to the early TNG alien ships, save for the Warbird, so your use of "all" makes your statement maliciously false.

    Beyond that, all the ship models seen in the first two seasons were capable of quick interstellar flight, even (and especially) those that were quoted to be sublight only. The models either did double duty within said seasons already, or were observed going interstellar in later episodes. Did any of them have nacelles? The Straleb ship sorta did, even if without any "warp glow", the port one invisible to the starboard one. The Batris had three big cylinders in the aft hull, the middle one obscuring the others from each other even if internal machinery didn't already do that job. On the others, podding the engines was apparently not mandatory, putting a lie to the line-of-sight thing in general (and never mind what "rules" would govern the plague ship, say).

    Perhaps he wanted to, but was thwarted by modelmaking reality? Having an actual observable attempt at line-of-sight may have depended on a variable geometry feature that was not built into the model, the couple of variable geometries included already proving too complex for practical use and hogging too much space inside the model.

    The end result has line-of-sight in the same sense as a Nebula class has line-of-sight: the warp field goes outboard from one nacelle, circles around Titan, sips some raktajino, returns via Vulcan, and then hits the other nacelle. Which is apparently fine for warp fields. Indeed, I'd love to see symmetry to this thing: the Marauder hull bulges upward, while the warp bubble bulges downward thanks to arching from one downward-pointing "field window" to another.

    There's a clear intent in the original original Type 7 (with the full-length side windows etc) to have the nacelles fully clear the belly. The eventual version has the inboard field windows (other than their flared-out forward ends) obscured, as best evidenced from rear shots. The Type 6 doesn't even have inboard field windows, but if it did, those would be obscured, as seen from the side view. It's not until the Type 8, never built in prop form, that there's actual line of sight.

    As for the hideous Sakharov partial prop, we should be thankful that it did not have a doorway built in. The heroes in "Unnatural Selection" and "The Host" are never quite seen boarding, then, just walking around the bow (in a way that makes it clear they're not using Probert's intended bow door!) or the stern. And the latter episode does a pretty good job at hiding the worst parts of the prop.

    So perhaps Data and Pulaski in "Unnatural Selection" walked into the Type 7 shuttle that was parked behind the Type 4½ Sakharov, while Ensign Nowan revved up the Sakharov and backed the monster out of the way to the rear of the bay so that the Type 7 could leave? :devil:

    Timo Saloniemi
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
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  19. Samuel

    Samuel Captain Captain

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    Why did he hate Franz Josephs stuff so much? Was it just because of the dreadnought?
     
  20. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Walrus Premium Member

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