My theory on why Kes wasn't a more beloved character. Also opinion on Lien. post-"Voyager."

[Lynx]

The reason why you can tell they replaced Kes was because they wanted to add a sex symbol is they tried to do that with Kes so you know it was already on their mind in season 3. They gave her a catsuit and the long flowing hair.
I do think their is some truth in them wanting more conflict and wanting to use the Borg but a sex symbol was clearly the number 1 thing they wanted.

Jason

You're right here, at least about the catsuit. I guess that had something to do with a certain producer's obsession with catsuits, as we could see with Troi, Seven and T'Pol.

When it comes to Kes's longer hair, that's a different story. It was obviously a result of Lien becoming allergic to the stuff which was used to attach the Ocampa ears on her head. By letting her have long hair they could simply omit the Ocampa ears.

However, the "sexing up the character" might have had something to do with it as well which was actually ridiculous because Kes was never meant to be a sex symbol.

Not to mention that they obviously did find some other stuff to attach the ears without allergic problems because she was wearing them in "Wors Case Scenario" and most of all in that horrible crap episode in season 6.

As for the other reasons for bringing in Seven, they already had what they were looking for. Seven was basically a cross between Kes (relationship to Janeway and The Doctor), Torres (certain controversy) and The Doctor (search for humanity) so what was the point? They already had the Borg as main enemy as well from the end of season 3. So what was the point, other than fulfilling one producer's wet dreams?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Kes sucked.

 

[Jayson1]

You're right here, at least about the catsuit. I guess that had something to do with a certain producer's obsession with catsuits, as we could see with Troi, Seven and T'Pol.

When it comes to Kes's longer hair, that's a different story. It was obviously a result of Lien becoming allergic to the stuff which was used to attach the Ocampa ears on her head. By letting her have long hair they could simply omit the Ocampa ears.

However, the "sexing up the character" might have had something to do with it as well which was actually ridiculous because Kes was never meant to be a sex symbol.

Not to mention that they obviously did find some other stuff to attach the ears without allergic problems because she was wearing them in "Wors Case Scenario" and most of all in that horrible crap episode in season 6.

As for the other reasons for bringing in Seven, they already had what they were looking for. Seven was basically a cross between Kes (relationship to Janeway and The Doctor), Torres (certain controversy) and The Doctor (search for humanity) so what was the point? They already had the Borg as main enemy as well from the end of season 3. So what was the point, other than fulfilling one producer's wet dreams?

With the Borg stuff I think they felt like they could justify using them more with a Borg as a regular plus Seven would offer some Borg stuff in each episode which to me is flawed thinking because if you put a Borg in a catsuit then you loose half of the apeal. Granted the idea that Seven could turn on the crew gives her some danger to her which is what the Borg also represent but it is kind of hard to get scared of someone in a catsuit, wearing high heels.

Jason

 

[Prax]

Seven isn't played as a sex symbol really at all.

 

[Six of Twelve]

I wanted her to stay on the show and help Seven become more human, and I wanted both of them to be lover eventually, giving Star Trek its first GLBT relationship.

The word you're going for is lesbian. They couldn't have been all four of those letters at once. And, no, that wouldn't have worked, especially with Seven, as I think her character is stronger without romantic/sexual relationships. For the same reason, I also didn't like the budding relationship with Chakotay, either.

 

[Sophie74656]

First of all, those events aren't the most significant facts and events in Kes's life. Events like joining the Voyager crew, becoming The Doctor's assistant, the relationship and break-up with Neelix are.

I hate the facts and events you mentioned because they ruin the character. Simple as that!

The life-span was a mistake. Species with such a short lifespan will never develope into more than primates.
The other two facts and events you mentioned were deliberately made to ruin and destroy the character. You don't believe me to like those, do you.

Since we do have posters who strongly dislike the character and the actress and who takes each and every opportunity to peck on the character and the actress by telling everyone what a worthless character Kes is and what a worthless actress Lien was, then I do think that I have all the right in the world to defend the character and the actress

You have a misunderstanding of the science behind evolution. I've mentioned this before to you. A species with a shorter life span will evolve FASTER because the revolutionary changes happen from generation to generation. Not in an individual. So you are wrong when you say that they would never evolve past primates. And this is not opinion, this is scientific fact.

 

[Prax]

So....how long do the Jem Hadar live? They're quite intelligent

 

[fireproof78]

You have a misunderstanding of the science behind evolution. I've mentioned this before to you. A species with a shorter life span will evolve FASTER because the revolutionary changes happen from generation to generation. Not in an individual. So you are wrong when you say that they would never evolve past primates. And this is not opinion, this is scientific fact.

COuld you provide an example. This is really interesting.

So....how long do the Jem Hadar live? They're quite intelligent

They are also genetically engineered by the Founders.

 

[Prax]

Ok, so it's significantly, as well as significantly stupid. Also, it's not really significant, since she doesn't make it to that age and explore that process, which would be something unique to her character. Instead, we get a "evolved being" that has been done and done again.

And seems rather out of character, so it doesn't feel significant because the character doesn't feel accurate.

So on the one hand you're complaining that Kes becoming an evolved being is "cliche" but on the other hand, when they make an alien with a short lifespan, you complain that it makes no sense. As for exploring the short lifespan of her character, it's key in many of her character focus episodes. Here are the two biggest examples:

And also Elogium and Darkling to name a few more. Please explain how it's out of character, and I will tell you why you're wrong.

 

[fireproof78]

@Prax
Nah, you've made your point.

The only thing about the short life span that makes no sense is their reproductive cycle. Other than that, I think, when they showed Kes aging, it was handled well. "Fury" being the one exception.

 

[Lynx]

You have a misunderstanding of the science behind evolution. I've mentioned this before to you. A species with a shorter life span will evolve FASTER because the revolutionary changes happen from generation to generation. Not in an individual. So you are wrong when you say that they would never evolve past primates. And this is not opinion, this is scientific fact.

So far I haven't met a dog who can talk or drive a car.

 

[Lynx]

So on the one hand you're complaining that Kes becoming an evolved being is "cliche" but on the other hand, when they make an alien with a short lifespan, you complain that it makes no sense. As for exploring the short lifespan of her character, it's key in many of her character focus episodes. Here are the two biggest examples:

And also Elogium and Darkling to name a few more. Please explain how it's out of character, and I will tell you why you're wrong.

The horrible alien on those photos is not Kes but an evil being from another dimension or Suspiria in disguise.
The real Kes would never try to harm her best friends.

There was no logic at all in the events of this crappy insulting episode, just deliberate destruction of a beloved character and a "finger" in the faces of the fans of that character.

 

[Lynx]

Kes sucked.

No, she didn't.

Best character of the show!

 

[Shaka Zulu]

The word you're going for is lesbian. They couldn't have been all four of those letters at once. And, no, that wouldn't have worked, especially with Seven, as I think her character is stronger without romantic/sexual relationships. For the same reason, I also didn't like the budding relationship with Chakotay, either.

I disagree (and I apologize for the mistake in not saying lesbian when I should have): I think that Seven would have been very good in a relationship, and I think that he being in a relationship with Kes would have been amazing. Seven does not have to be a sexless scientist to be a great character, she can learn how to be human, grow, and love just like anybody else.

 

[at Quark's]

Seven isn't played as a sex symbol really at all.

Not played, no, but I think 7's appearance was clearly intended as such. Why else the impossible catsuits that stressed certain parts of her body? Why those high heels? Why the make up that made her lips look fuller, etc? Can't have made her more 'efficient' in astrometrics Imho, she clearly was intended as 'the ice cold sex bomb that didn't know herself, or care about it'.

 

[Sophie74656]

So far I haven't met a dog who can talk or drive a car.

My brain can't even process this. You don't know anything about evolution.

 

[Lynx]

My brain can't even process this. You don't know anything about evolution.

In that case maybe you can enlighten me with your great knowledge why species with such short lifespans as dogs and monkeys still haven't developed into talking and car-driving beings, not even medical assistants?

 

[Sophie74656]

In that case maybe you can enlighten me with your great knowledge why species with such short lifespans as dogs and monkeys still haven't developed into talking and car-driving beings, not even medical assistants?

Geez....this is a whole different conversation. But dogs haven't been around long enough (dogs are a man made creation through selective breeding) and monkeys, well....monkeys in a way have evolved into talking beings. YOU are one of them.

 

[Prax]

Not played, no, but I think 7's appearance was clearly intended as such. Why else the impossible catsuits that stressed certain parts of her body? Why those high heels? Why the make up that made her lips look fuller, etc? Can't have made her more 'efficient' in astrometrics Imho, she clearly was intended as 'the ice cold sex bomb that didn't know herself, or care about it'.

Yeah, the heels were dumb, but it was the 90's. I don't think T'Pol had heels. They probably wanted her to be taller too.

As for catsuits, Seven gets an awful lot of flak on here for that, and the complaints are often used to slam the show as a whole, but I rarely hear the same gripes for any of the other catsuits. Troy wore a catsuit that always included a great deal of cleavage, and Kira wore a catsuit with heels that made no sense at all, as all other Bajorans continued wearing the same uniform. She even wore heels while pregnant!

B'Elanna, Kes, and Janeway wore heels, too.

 

[at Quark's]

Yeah, the heels were dumb, but it was the 90's. I don't think T'Pol had heels. They probably wanted her to be taller too.

As for catsuits, Seven gets an awful lot of flak on here for that, and the complaints are often used to slam the show as a whole, but I rarely hear the same gripes for any of the other catsuits. Troy wore a catsuit that always included a great deal of cleavage, and Kira wore a catsuit with heels that made no sense at all, as all other Bajorans continued wearing the same uniform. She even wore heels while pregnant!

B'Elanna, Kes, and Janeway wore heels, too.

Well, I think those catsuits were equally dumb and annoying in the case of Troi and Kira, so I wouldn't single Seven out for that. Or rather, the person responsible for that decision as of course it isn't the fault of the actress or the character she plays.

But perhaps a reason 7 does "get more flak" for this is that those other 2 characters were there from the beginning (and I think, wearing such suits from the beginning as well), whereas 7 replaced another character who didn't, so that it was perceived more as an attempt to 'sex up' during the middle of the show's run ?