My name is.....SORAN!

[Franklin]

Guys completely misinterpreted what I was saying. Khan would never consider himself a savage. Just like Hitler wouldn't consider himself a monster.

You are discussing the outside view. But Khan was talking about himself, and that was out of character. "I am better at everything"-talk. Khan. All that talk about his savagery and 23rd century people not being able to break bone. Not Khan.

For what it's worth, Khan wasn't speaking about all 23rd century people not being able to break bone. He was making a sarcastic or insulting remark aimed at Spock, saying that if Spock can't even break rules, how can he be expected to break bone.

Khan in "Space Seed" was also very arrogant about being better than other people. In “Space Seed” he tells Kirk, “Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I'm surprised at how little improvement there has been in human evolution."

He talked about how he'd have eventually become the sole ruler on Earth in the 1990s and would've offered a world like Rome under Caesar.

When Marla told him he may not like living in their times, he said he'd have to mold them to his liking. I don't think he meant that would be done peacefully.

Characters like Khan were a recurring theme in all versions of Trek: incredibly gifted people who were also incredibly flawed in some tragic or criminal way.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

You could fit in any villain you like in place of Khan

Actually it isn't as easy as people seem to think as with the villains suggested as replacements are either to under powered to slaughter a platoon of klingons are to over powered for them not to just vaporize the klingons with a thought.

Seeing Gary-Cumberbatch vaoprize a platoon of klingons with his telekineitc and telepathic powers would have been awesome to see though.

But I agree. Without nerfing Gary Mitchell to a level that i can be beaten, there would be no way to maintain him as a threat throughout the film.

 

[22 Stars]

Why does that argument keep cropping up?

Let's nip this one, nobody in the general audience will "give a shit" about anyone from the Trek mythos beyond whether they provide solid entertainment value. The only people who will care either way are the fans. So it makes no difference whether you use Soran, Khan, Kang, Kor, Koloth, Garth of Izar, or Garry Mitchell. What matters is whether they're well written, well performed, and impress upon the audience a sense of gravitas, pathos, and importance.

Now, i'm not saying Soran was the way to go... I just don't understand the logic behind "the mass audience won't care." They won't care about any of this, one way or the other. They're not in it for that. All they care about is whether the movie is entertaining. Right?

OMG I want this on a T Shirt. Thank you for stating this so clearly. This is precisely why i think they made a mistake making Harrison = Khan.

 

[Cinema Geekly]

Why does that argument keep cropping up?

Let's nip this one, nobody in the general audience will "give a shit" about anyone from the Trek mythos beyond whether they provide solid entertainment value. The only people who will care either way are the fans. So it makes no difference whether you use Soran, Khan, Kang, Kor, Koloth, Garth of Izar, or Garry Mitchell. What matters is whether they're well written, well performed, and impress upon the audience a sense of gravitas, pathos, and importance.

Now, i'm not saying Soran was the way to go... I just don't understand the logic behind "the mass audience won't care." They won't care about any of this, one way or the other. They're not in it for that. All they care about is whether the movie is entertaining. Right?

OMG I want this on a T Shirt. Thank you for stating this so clearly. This is precisely why i think they made a mistake making Harrison = Khan.

Actually according to OpenMaw's post it wasn't a mistake. Maw may be correct that it didn't matter who they put in there to the casual audience even though of the names listed Khan is easily the most recognizable to non Trek fans and I think that is why they went that route.

Furthermore they did go with Khan and the movie made a lot of money and did well among critics and the movie going audience who all gave a majority of positive reviews.

People might have a point saying it was a mistake if the movie tanked, but that just wasn't the case.

 

[MrJ]

Furthermore they did go with Khan and the movie made a lot of money and did well among critics and the movie going audience who all gave a majority of positive reviews.

People might have a point saying it was a mistake if the movie tanked, but that just wasn't the case.

A movie can do well and be riddled with problems, the Star Wars prequels and the Transformers movies for example. And out of all of the positive reviews for Star Trek Into Darkness I've read none of them claim it's a perfect movie, it's just good enough. Many critics have mentioned having Khan as the villain was a mistake. Yeah, STiD made a bunch of money, but compared to how Star Trek 2009 did, STiD's 3D and IMAX tickets and it's bigger budget, studio insiders consider STiD to have underperformed at the box office. Obviously it didn't bomb, but it didn't do as well as it was expected to do. And part of that could have been Khan, as well as many other things.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Khan would never consider himself a savage. Just like Hitler wouldn't consider himself a monster.

Irrelevant. They still are those things, whether or not they THINK they are.

 

[The Wormhole]

Many critics have mentioned having Khan as the villain was a mistake. [SNIP] And part of that could have been Khan, as well as many other things.

Using Khan wasn't necessarily a mistake, the way they went about it was. So they went with Khan because they feel he's Star Trek's ultimate villain. That's all fine and good, but then they kept it a secret, refusing to identify the villain for ten months after he was cast and then they told us his name was John Harrison.

If the reason they chose to use Khan was because he's the Ultimate Villain and the one fans wanted to see brought into the rebooted universe the most, shouldn't they have advertised that fact? Made it well known that? Not make it the plot twist of the movie and go to the most ridiculous lengths to keep it a secret.

Hell, I suspect someone must realize this in hindsight since the blurb on the back of the Blu-ray box says the villain is Khan in the second sentence.

 

[JarodRussell]

Hollywood nowadays is all about the first weekend box office. And they figured that a mystery brings them more bucks in the first three days than the truth.

 

[The Wormhole]

A stupid approach, but then I should expect no better from the people who kept Lost going for six years by being mysterious.

But really, one would think you want to provide reasons in advance for people to see your movie, and then draw more in through word of mouth. Not make the main attraction a secret which no one will know until after someone's seen the movie.

 

[austen_pierce]

soran could have made kind of sense as:

-more intelligent/stronger than a human

-obsessed with family

-part of an escaped race in exile (due to the borg - El Aurians attacked by borg in 2265 in PT but Neros interference may have brought it forward pre STID 2259 - esp since his vessel was borgified thus maybe alerting the borg sooner)

-would possibly be around the age Cumberbatch is in 2259 (Generation Ent B opening takes place in 2293)

-BC is british and kind of looks/talks like a young Malcolm MacDowell

-responsible for killing Kirk (again)

-dresses in black jumpsuit

-ability to detect alternate realities/things arent be as they should could’ve been a fun thing for the story (see Guinan in Yesterdays Ent)

Yup. They're both Brits.

Well, I don't think it would work. No one outside Trek fans gives two shits about Star Trek: Generations.

And even those of us inside only give one and a half

 

[austen_pierce]

It would have worked. No one expects Soran to be revisited, hell I don't even think the novels have done anything with him

There's a reason for that. First, he's dead. Second, his backstory prior to encountering the Nexus is irrelevant. There's really nothing to explore.

Unless you wanna go alternate reality.... he DID enter the Nexus after all. Anything could have happened after that, but it's kinda also a dead end since at that point, he got what he wanted.

 

[Melakon]

It's almost like they were trying to duplicate the suspense behind rumors of Spock's death before Wrath of Khan was released 30 years ago.

And the OP somehow got me thinking of an old Irving Berlin song.

Khan: Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you.
Kirk: No, you can't.
Khan: Yes, I can.
Kirk: No, you can't.
Khan: Yes, I can.
Kirk: No, you can't.
Khan: Yes, I can, yes, I can!

 

[Sindatur]

It's almost like they were trying to duplicate the suspense behind rumors of Spock's death before Wrath of Khan was released 30 years ago.

And the OP somehow got me thinking of an old Irving Berlin song.

Khan: Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you.
Kirk: No, you can't.
Khan: Yes, I can.
Kirk: No, you can't.
Khan: Yes, I can.
Kirk: No, you can't.
Khan: Yes, I can, yes, I can!

Heh. Speaking of songs, every time I read the thread title, I have Copa Cabana running through my head (Her name was Lola... His Name was Rico... My Name is Soran...)

 

[The Wormhole]

It would have worked. No one expects Soran to be revisited, hell I don't even think the novels have done anything with him

There's a reason for that. First, he's dead.

So is Khan.

Second, his backstory prior to encountering the Nexus is irrelevant. There's really nothing to explore.

His backstory prior to encountering the Nexus involves the Borg. Are you really going to be surprised when they show up in the Abramsverse?

 

[Kelthaz]

Using Khan wasn't necessarily a mistake, the way they went about it was. So they went with Khan because they feel he's Star Trek's ultimate villain. That's all fine and good, but then they kept it a secret, refusing to identify the villain for ten months after he was cast and then they told us his name was John Harrison.

If the reason they chose to use Khan was because he's the Ultimate Villain and the one fans wanted to see brought into the rebooted universe the most, shouldn't they have advertised that fact? Made it well known that? Not make it the plot twist of the movie and go to the most ridiculous lengths to keep it a secret.

Keeping Khan a mystery and out of the marketing was the worst thing that they could have done. Every Star Trek fan -- the people already planning to see this movie -- knew that the villain was Khan long before release, but the general public -- the people who need to be convinced to see it -- knew nothing more than some random guy named John was blowing shit up. Yeah, I wouldn't have seen it either.

 

[Melakon]

If they'd really wanted to surprise us all, John Harrison could have been revealed as Harcourt Fenton Mudd. But then instead of Cumberbatch, he probably would have been Jack Black.

 

[ChowdaHead]

zZzZzZzZz

 

[Sindatur]

If they'd really wanted to surprise us all, John Harrison could have been revealed as Harcourt Fenton Mudd. But then instead of Cumberbatch, he probably would have been Jack Black.

"Melakon [Fenton Mudd the third]....have you been drinking again..."