My map of the Federation, post-Nemesis

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by Belz..., Dec 31, 2018.

  1. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, the "pathway" is important to me as well. What frustrates me about most fan maps is how the locations seem seeded at random. Starfleet must really be bonkers to send the Enterprise left and right like this. It seems much more logical to send the Enterprise to nearby locations and only rarely asking it to travel a long way at high warp.

    I can only presume the people who made the map didn't really have a look at the episodes.

    Thank you, and I will try to improve it over time, thanks to comments like your own.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The odd thing is that we know for a fact that Picard is being sent left and right, and does more high warp than most skippers.

    Or perhaps not so odd, if we consider his is the one and only Federation Flagship. Whenever there's political trouble, Picard gets sent - and the UFP is surrounded by enemies on all sides, with potential allies lurking beyond the borders rather than nicely clustered at a specific spot.

    Lesser ships and skippers could be assigned patrol areas. It's rather more odd, then, that Kirk seemed to do this same mad jitterbug with his run-of-the-mill ship.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. Finn

    Finn Admiral Admiral

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    Looks good, though I thought Klingons and Romulans shared a border as shown in Redemption??

    As for that Kirk comment above...was it mentioned that Kirk's dad was a starfleet officer prior to Nu-Trek, perhaps had made the Admiralty before Kirk took command of the Enterprise?
     
  4. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Is that a fact? I'm not aware of that. Could you post a quote or some relevant info from canon? Or is that your interpretation?

    The issue with that is that either the Federation's really small, or ships are really fast, which is the same thing, and as I said above it means you're always close to Earth and Romulus and Qo'Nos and all, and it doesn't make Trek feel like you're really exploring and going boldly. The UFP taking 6 years to cross is ridiculous, but it taking 2 days to cross is equally silly.

    Still, Picard isn't the only good captain and negociator. If it takes him 3 months to get from A to B wouldn't it make more sense to send someone closer? Sure, it's just an excuse to get the main characters there, but I wish they didn't send the big E back to the same places over and over. Go 2 seasons without seeing the Klingons or Romulans, maybe.

    Yes, absolutely. I cheated a bit there to allow the Federation to have some isolated areas beyond the K-R border. The two are really close, though, so I figured it was good enough. The map I linked to earlier has that isolated territory, but UFP ships have to cross Klingon space to get there. I'm not sure how that works with the treaty and all.
     
  5. psCargile

    psCargile Captain Captain

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    Another approach breaks the paradigm that all space within this "border" is our territory. If you take a member world and its colonies and depict it's local claims as a sphere or blob, and do that with all of them, your actual territory will have voids and routes where the blobs do not meet. Those voids may not be your territory, and maybe light-years in measurement. And maybe allow an empire on one side of you to have contact with the empire on the other side without violating your border. Space is big. It allows for this.
     
  6. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    That's indeed a good approach, though it is hard to do on a map with hundreds of locations or member worlds.

    The way I've dealt with this, which doesn't show on the map, is that the Federation assumes that every system within their sphere of influence is under their protection, and part of their territory. That's caused more than a few tensions with planets that want nothing to do with the UFP or who find that, once they develop warp drive or head out of their system, suddenly they have to negociate with Earth as if they automatically have a prior engagement. Kind of like if you're born in a country you're bound by its laws whether you want to or not.

    Yes, and sci-fi writers rarely realise how big, or what that entails.
     
  7. Finn

    Finn Admiral Admiral

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    Yes. I always love how when we see a shuttlecraft run into trouble and a planet is right there for them to land on...
     
  8. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Ok I've updated the map a bit. Betreka and Gamma Eridon are now properly placed, and I've tried to show a bit of the third dimension by having the Klingon territory pass above or below the Tholian and Federation ones. That last bit now means that the Klingon-Romulan border is now evident on the map. Thanks for the comment, gazomg.

    See? I told you that you could show 3D on a 2D map. ;)

    :D

    My favourite bit is at the start of the first reboot. The Kelvin officer asks Starfleet if the gigantic space storm they're seeing could be Klingon in origin, and gets a response that is negative because, according to them, they're 75,000km from the Klingon border. That's spitting distance. By that I mean, if someone opens a window and spits towards Klingon territory, there's a non-zero chance that a Klingon will get it in the face within a few months. That's nonsense! With the Klingon war looming, you'd think they'd stay at least 75,000 AU from the border.
     
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  9. psCargile

    psCargile Captain Captain

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    And 1.2 lightyears is still close at warp speed.
     
  10. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Indeed, but at least you won't get into an argument on whether you're on one side of the border or the other. It's like sailing near Chinese waters and staying within 2 feet of the line on the map. That's asking for trouble.
     
  11. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The bit about Picard using significantly more high warp than usual for Starfleet is mentioned a couple of times, but "Phantasms" is a good example: it's the reason they need this rare core overhaul that goes awry.

    It doesn't follow that Picard would travel great distances. But that bit comes from the show itself: we win nothing by arranging his adventures in a straight row, because he deals in high politics with major enemies and there'd be no point in arranging those enemies in a row. He sorts out Romulan, Klingon and Cardassian business alike, sometimes because he's sent to, sometimes because events catch up with him.

    I don't think this should be a problem, actually. Picard isn't really credited with exploring anyway ("Remember when we used to be explorers?" "Well, Sir, there was that one mission in Season Three, I think, with the Tin Man thing and..."). And the dimensions of the UFP aren't particularly relevant there: exploration takes place outside those confines, not within them. It's just a job for... Somebody else.

    Then again, his enemies are many. Perhaps a dozen Picards are fully employed shuttling between all the players, there being advantages to rotating the negotiators so that things don't get stuck?

    But as far as we know, there is only one flagship. And she does go from capital to capital all the time - just like lesser players do, there being means for, say, Vash to span the known space reasonably fast.

    Three dimensions, is all. The RNZ is a smallish eggshell, easily circumnavigated; that an ugly Klingon pseudopod splashes against it in conflict doesn't mean the UFP would be cut off from the back yards of either of those two players.

    Actually, there's nothing in the walla about "border"; it cuts rather sharply before anything of the sort could be made out, and apparently quite deliberately so.

    In the originally scripted (and supposedly shot but then cut) version of the teaser, Klingon ships were lurking nearby, and decloaked and captured the Narada right after George Kirk had rendered her immobile and helped his crew escape the scene. The dialogue may have been written with that in mind: "Negative, the Klingons are still at point blank range and we can see everything they are doing - they aren't the guilty party here". That'd be right out of the Cold War books: two enemies shadowing each other, mirroring each and every move the other party makes, no matter how innocuous. In this case, going to check out a weird space storm...

    Now, figuring out where the heck the teaser takes place is the fun part. Is that the star that destroyed Romulus? Weird holes through time need not travel through space at all, and in Trek they generally don't. Is that in fact the homestar of the Romulans? After all, both Spock and Nero must have launched into the 23rd century from there, because they fell into the timehole Spock created, and Spock created the timehole right next to the kaboom, and the kaboom was right next to Romulus... We are still debating whether "Balance of Terror" took place at high warp or low sublight, so Starfleet moving at the outer edges of the Romulan home system itself might be quite possible in the 2230s.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Then you're saying that the whole premise of the show is a lie. I can't accept that. Call it an argument from incredulity, but exploration is the very core of Star Trek. Yes, they do diplomacy and other things at the same time, but from an administration standpoint, flagship or no, you send the ship where it can reach in time for the mission, not to places it'll take months to reach. It's just not logical. In any case, it's irrelevant, since I've arranged the map to avoid these sorts of issues (save 3 or 4 times where the distance between two episodes is pretty large) while still having a functional presentation of the Star Trek universe.

    To be clear, you're correct that they don't do quite as much exploring as you'd expect, and they sure stay closer to home than dedicated explorers. Still, I wanted to convey the size of the Federation and the missions of the Enterprise in a way that didn't betray the core idea of the show, and most maps I've seen fail in some way or another. Hopefully I've done good with that.

    Then the whole idea of the neutral zone is pointless, since the Romulans could circumvent it as well unless they are completely surrounded and isolated, in which case they wouldn't be a threat.

    Regardless of what they meant, it's still spitting distance, so you can't discount the Klingons. It's a nonsensical answer any way you slice it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
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  13. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Easy to explain for TOS era: Even if shuttles have low warp capability, they have limited fuel (The Menagerie, The Galileo Seven, Metamorphosis, Let That Be Your Last Battlefield), so, nothing good ever comes of leaving a solar system they are near. In TM and LTBYLB, both left Starbase and ran out of gas. TG7, dropped at edge of solar system, caught in storm, crashed on planet (ran ashore), punctured gas tank. This case could be pure dumb luck or maybe Spock had limited control and guided it to the only inhabitable planet. Metamorphosis, left planet to rendezvous with ship outside solar system to save a little time, grabbed by space (sea) monster, taken to home planet (in the belly of the beast and spit out on shore). At low warp, the next solar system is months to years away. At low warp, any place in a solar system can be reached in minutes to hours. Its like a small motor boat off the coast on the ocean. It's unwise to loose sight of land. :techman:

    Got nothing for TNG/DS9 era: Now shuttle/runabouts are high warp small ships with unlimited fuel, able to go back and forth to Earth for shore leave. They seem to trip over star systems with M-Class planets. :shrug:

    TNG is a bird's nest. :weep: Archer and Kirk should have more "linear" paths at least making this part of the map easier to create. :) DS9 should be the easiest; they didn't go any place (unless you start mapping out the Gamma quadrant). :lol:

    Good Luck, again.
     
  14. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    Also interesting is that while they are in the solar system at high warp speeds they are actually going very slow. So it would seem that regions of higher gravity actually produce slower actual speeds. This would also match what we see in First Contact, where the Phoenix barely makes any distance even traveling at warp 1. My theory is that warp factor(speed) isn't necessarily directly related to speed but is more related to power put into the system. For example the Phoenix only broke light speed in terms of generating a 1 Cochrane warp field and would have been traveling at 1c if it was in open space. But since it was right next to earth the Actual Speed was less than 1c.
     
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  15. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    And that's not even mentioning the fact that sometimes the script says you can't use warp drive safely within a star system, and sometimes it's not a problem.
     
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  16. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The two put together sort of complement each other, now don't they?

    Add Bajor's infamous time-dependent "subspace weather", as mentioned in a couple of episodes, and then note that Bajor is the only system quoted with "warp problems", apart from Sol. Perhaps Sol also burps out foul weather more often than other stars, then? A fun detail to add to the astrography of the Trek playing ground.

    Then why are there no adventures involving exploration in TNG? Premises are irrelevant if they have no effect on that which is.

    TOS has plenty of exploration. It does not happen inside the UFP, though. But even TOS shows that zipping between the far frontier and Earth is easy, and the ship visits Earth twice during her "deep space" adventures. The TNG ship does so in "Conspiracy" easily enough as well - at which point Picard outright states that this is unusual for a starship by choice, not due to technical shortcomings.

    From which it simply follows that speeds in Trek are high and/or distances are short. What's the problem with that? Your map or Star Charts' does away with internal contradictions; going against an unrealized premise is not something we should worry about on top of that.

    Absolutely. I just wanted to gripe about premise fixations from that other angle - that the premise of exploring your own back yard, the Federation, is not something I want to believe in unless forced to.

    But that has always been the point: the Romulans are a threat and for that reason completely surrounded and isolated. Which doesn't help, as their very first adventure already involves them defying the isolation in a frightening fashion. Nothing wrong with that.

    Oh, no disagreement there. I just wanted to point out how that snippet of a line came to be: it apparently refers to specific Klingon ships that are lurking nearby, not to the general proximity of potential Klingon activity. "It can't be Bob - he's right next to me" is not nonsense. The movie as cut for release just fails to solidly establish the line would be about that thing.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Aren't there? I thought there were plenty. Not the majority, but plenty.

    It's still saying that the premise is a lie.

    "Space, the former frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. It's ad-hoc missions: to enforce strange, old treaties, to seek out old enemies and old trade negociations. To blandly go where we've already gone before." Doesn't sound very exciting.

    I don't know where you get this idea that they're not inside the UFP any more than in TNG. Is this from a line of dialogue?

    As I already said, it gives the impression that space is small and familiar rather than vast and unexplored. That's not how I view the premise of the show.

    I don't follow, sorry

    This is at least the third time in your post that you state what sounds like your interpretation as fact. That is, unless you can show in canon that the Romulans are indeed contained. I've never had this impression, but I'm willing to be shown wrong. That sure would give a lot of weight to the Star Charts map.
     
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  18. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Missions explicitly involving the E-D going by choice to where no one (from the UFP at least) has gone before? I don't think Picard ever conducted a single one. Aboard the E-D, that is; I can't vouch for his Stargazer days.

    We could argue that adventures with certain impressive heavenly phenomena he observed (such as the collision of worlds in "Ship in a Bottle") additionally involved him being the first at that location, but that isn't quite stated.

    And indeed it is. Moreover, it isn't even part of the Trek universe - it's part of the credits, which reveal the entire Trek universe to be a lie, the characters to be impostors, etc. Why worry about such a thing?

    Turned out to be in the end, though. So what's a little lie between friends? In-universe, the empty boast of the voiceover is supposed to be some sort of a quote - but it's not original with Picard. Or even Kirk. It's credited to Zephram Cochrane.

    In terms of geometry, you mean? The heroes are often in places that are not part of the UFP, and have to introduce the concept to the locals (the relevant quote being "I am Captain James T. Kirk and I represent the Federation" in all its variants). I guess it would be impossible to rule out the idea that these alien places are within UFP territory. It's just that Kirk needs to do a lot of this type of introducing, and Picard needs to do less.

    What would be the alternative, though? If everywhere is within the UFP, and the UFP is everywhere, are our heroes delusional megalomaniacs who have declared the entire universe their property even without visiting it? Often enough, when Kirk has to do the introduction bit, he's fighting over possession of the place quite concretely, rather than delusionally (although there's some of the latter, too) - with Klingons on three or four occasions, say. This by definition cannot take place within the UFP, where those foreign devils ought to have no hold.

    The UFP is small and familiar. It's the home base. The heroes defend it, and some of them just do that from the inside. When they defend from the inside, though, they don't go toe to toe with Klingons or Romulans. That interaction defines the borders or the free-for-all vastness beyond them. And if you feel the stories need breathing room, then that vastness ought to provide it, no matter how small the UFP itself is.

    I don't quite understand the confusion. Surely it's clear from "Balance of Terror" already that the Romulans are utterly contained? It features, and I do quote, "the neutral zone between planets Romulus and Remus and the rest of the galaxy". Not between them and Earth, or between them and anything else - but between them and everything else. And all the early plots about Romulans are about the failure to contain them, against expectations. They are the caged tigers, and the excitement is over whether the bars and locks will hold.

    It is only in "Tin Man" that we first hear of Romulans outside the RNZ and don't have the heroes accusing them of an act of war outright. Chiefly because said Romulans are firing at them anyway... In DS9, having Romulans outside the RNZ is more or less accepted, though, although the ships encountered may be on diplomatic or commercial business under special permit.

    (In practice, the RNZ does leak, and among the things leaking from there is the famed ale. But that's the way of borders.)

    I hope this doesn't create the impression that I disapprove of your work, BTW. My comments are prompted by my conviction that you are needlessly worried: the issues you see are not crucial to Trek mapmaking. But they certainly don't invalidate your approach, either.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
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  19. Finn

    Finn Admiral Admiral

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    Are you kidding, Timo?

    Also, lot of the dialogue in TOS is utterly absurd.
     
  20. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I don't think "explore" means "by choice". You can very well be sent to explore a nebula that no one's ever been to. That's what I'm refering to.

    You must be joking. It's not ridiculous to immerse yourself into a fictional setting and assume that it's a real thing for the purposes of enjoying it.

    Post hoc. It took decades for that to be made up.

    That's always been my interpretation, yes. The Federation's expanded and has engulfed several inhabited star systems that are non-members.

    According to some semi-official sources it's supposed to be 10,000 ly wide, which would take 6.67 years at non-stop warp 9 to cover. That's obviously way too big, but the idea's there.

    That's one way of looking at it, and the Star Charts map sure seems to be built upon this assumption.

    Taken literally, yes. But it's superseded by the following encounters, and it's clear by TNG that their empire has expanded, not least of which since they can fight toe-to-toe with the other powers.

    Again, your interpretation.

    No, no. The two discussions are entirely separate.

    You are correct. I'm not worried, by the way. I just disagree with the way other maps have been made, and decided to make my own. To clarify, the first version of this map was made back in the early 2000s, and its structure is very similar to the current one.

    It all depends on the assumptions you make. I wanted a map that showed a clear expansion of the UFP between eras, one that would be as accurate as possible compared to the content of the show (even if that meant contradicting its charts) and one in which you could follow the path of the Enterprise(s) through the series. But if your assumption is that the Federation hasn't expanded much for various reasons, but that the radius of explored space has, then the Star Charts map is pretty damn good. However, it would mean that the Tzenkethi, the Cardassians and even the Ferengi should've been known to Kirk. They're much loser to Earth than Cestus III or the Mutara nebula, and about equidistant with the First Federation or Gamma Hydra.

    I guess my main issue with it is that it seems to take Star Trek as a single moment in time rather than a 200 year history of Earth. Hell, why is Regula I so damned far? You'd think Starfleet would want their god-like experiment close to home where they can safeguard it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019