My map of the Federation, post-Nemesis

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by Belz..., Dec 31, 2018.

  1. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    No. It's original to Kirk. We all know that little e doesn't count.
     
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  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    A couple of random points:

    True. But what was that tirade "supposed" to be before that? It sounds as if Kirk is dictating the foreword, or rather the blurb, to his memoirs there. It has no place in the fictional context of the mission itself - there's no context in which Kirk would be prompted to say "These are the voyages", yadda yadda.

    That two captains, Kirk and Picard, would feel obligated to read the same lines suggests a tradition, and tradition may trump reason. But specific to the Enterprise? Started by Kirk? (Thankfully, we don't need to think Archer started anything there.) Or generic insert-ship-here? Regardless of actual mission? It makes so little sense no matter which way one looks at it...

    I guess I have a problem with that engulfing. So now exploration means telling the natives that they have been conquered? On the other hand, that certainly has a comfortingly familiar ring to it. :devil:

    Yet in early TNG it is still casus belli if Romulans are to be found on the wrong side of the RNZ. By simple topological argumentation, there can be no wrong side unless the RNZ is a complete shell...

    What would be the advantage of assuming the shell leaks de jure? I mean, it obviously leaks de facto, and the Star Charts sorta refused to make the RNZ graphically truly continuous on the far side and instead postulated spillage. But the heroes seem to condemn leakage, till "Paradise" where a report from a random Romulan ship in the wrong place is taken on the stride (all the other Romulan presences on the wrong side could have been considered illegal or part of diplomatic arrangements).

    And so would the gods of Pollux, if distance is our only yardstick. But the Ferengi would be secretive, the Tzenkethi perhaps isolationist, and for all we know the Cardassians were known (they are obliquely referenced in those parallel 2250s at least).

    That's what ties together a great deal of Star Charts in fact! "Space Seed" finds our heroes at a location abandoned by modern Earthlings after a previous presence; Khan supposedly gets marooned in the neighborhood, and the action of ST2:TWoK then supposedly involves the neighborhood as well. An uninteresting backyard like that would be a prime location for a secret experiment when many of its major threats would come from within the UFP itself (critics, thieves, saboteurs, spies, terrorists).

    It still counts as "close to home", as Kirk's birthday joyride reaches the location easily enough. We may also debate whether Kirk really ended up close to the place at random, or whether it just was a short hop from the location where Khan lured him in to the location where Khan awaited him at Regula despite this not being close. I.e. the hypothesis that all of the UFP is traversed relatively quickly by a starship in a hurry, including those places nobody cares to go to any more.

    The absolute numbers would come from assumptions on the speed of the Botany Bay. Around 150 ly from Earth would have been my best estimate (as this sort of speeding would relativistically shorten Khan's sleep sufficiently for the "two centuries" reference), but Mandel had slightly different ideas.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  3. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I think you're over-thinking this (gosh that's a bad way to write this!). The narration doesn't need to be in-universe, only to represent what the show is about.

    Contrary to what they claim, the Federation's often a bit of a dick.

    That's like saying that the DMZ in real life prevents South Koreans from going to Japan. They could expand on the far side, instead.

    Isolationist is one thing, but it's hard to miss those fleets and colonies if the Federation's expanding and exploring.

    I have some sympathy for that argument.

    Correction: they reach the Regula I outpost easily enough, which makes its location on the Star Charts suspect. Again, it's like everything's in Earth's backyard, which makes the isolationist argument even weaker. I guess that's my main objection to almost all of the fan maps made about Star Trek: they completely miss the grandeur I expect from a world where exploration's the main (audience) draw.

    Which of course makes Star Trek more like Star Wars, and the whole premise pointless. I have more respect than that for its core idea.

    The Botany Bay is a 20th century ship. It couldn't even get outside the solar system in that time, were the writers to put any thought into it.
     
  4. Rekkert

    Rekkert Commander Red Shirt

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    This in an absolutely incredible work you've done! :)

    I'm curious about your position for the Briar Patch though, it was known to the Klingons in the 22th century according to Enterprise, so shouldn't it be located closer to their territory?
     
  5. Finn

    Finn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    IIRC it's not the same one
     
  6. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    According to who?
     
  7. Rekkert

    Rekkert Commander Red Shirt

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    It is supposed to be. The Klingons call it Klach K'Del Brakt, a name first used in DS9. However they weren't mentioned as different names for the same phenomena until Enterprise's season 4.

    Some of the olders star charts thus show them as two different locations, but after the Enterprise episode the latest Stellar Carthography book lists them as the same.
     
  8. Finn

    Finn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I remember something I read about how the "briar patch" we saw on Enterprise wasn't the same one we saw in Insurrection, around the time that episode came out.
     
  9. Henoch

    Henoch Captain Premium Member

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    I made a tangent thread in the Trek Tech forum on this interesting topic. It seemed to deserve its own thread, titled "Moving Slow at Warp Speed". Thanks,
    Henoch
     
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  10. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Honestly the map is mostly aimed at placing the stuff from TOS and TNG. I'm not that familiar with ENT, having seen the series only once so far. But on most maps the damned thing would be visible from Earth, and it would be if you followed ENT's ridiculous take on Qo'Nos' proximity. As I hinted to before, if you want to be consistent with Star Trek, you'll have to be inconsistent with other parts of it as well, since it is itself inconsistent.

    Also, it made sense to me to have it in that area, helping to explain why Worf would be nearby, and also how the Son'a can supply the Dominion. Finally, I was able to put it in my sector numbered 441, the same sector it's in in the dialogue, which was too good to pass up. Besides, Picard didn't seem to be aware of the name of the area before the admiral told him about it. He reacts to the name with amusement.
     
  11. Finn

    Finn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah. I remember some kind of "behind the scenes" article where someone on the team who did the episode said it wasn't the same Briar Patch we saw in Insurrection. You are right, the Son'a's ability to supply the Dominion would add credence to that.
     
  12. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    The Romulan Republic??? It's not the Romulan Star Empire??? Is this... "Prime revisionism"?
     
  13. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Think about it. They have a senate. Do you think they call _themselves_ an empire?

    I'm pretty sure the term Romulan is derogatory and comes from humans because of the Roman parallels.
     
  14. Finn

    Finn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ while I agree isn't called "Romulan Republic- remember...the Empire (from the Star Wars saga) had a senate for 19 years
     
  15. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Since when is Star Wars supposed to make sense? ;)

    No, my point is that we call the Roman Empire and Empire but they'd never have called themselves that.
     
  16. Henoch

    Henoch Captain Premium Member

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    I imagine there were periods in human history when they use the explorer's terminology to refer to another land or group of people they discover...
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  17. TommyR01D

    TommyR01D Captain Captain

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    I don't see a contradiction.
     
  18. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I never said there was a contradiction. I offered an argument.
     
  19. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I just thought of something that may be a good argument against my stance on the Trek maps: in Cause and Effect the Enterprise, in the presumably-far-from-home Typhon Expanse, encounters the Bozeman from 2278. Clearly the Federation's had the ability to go to that place for a long time (95 years). So maybe the map's on to something.

    Of course it doesn't explain why the thing sits well within 24th century exploration ability and yet it has gone unexplored for so long.
     
  20. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    It's a very cool map!

    Kor