My gripe about ST6:TUC

[Data Holmes]

Unicron said:As others have pointed out, Vulcans are not robots. They have emotions, but because they are usually suppressed does not make them nonexistent. And Sybok was not expelled from Vulcan because he favored emotions, but because he attacked other Vulcans trying to rescue his mother's katra. Both of them were under the influence of the being that pretended to be God.

Where do you get that bit about the katra, because it isn't in the movie...

And I quote, from the movie:

KIRK:Spock, what is it? Do you know this Vulcan?

SPOCK: I cannot be sure.

KIRK: But he does seem familiar.

SPOCK: He reminds me of someone I knew in my youth.

McCOY: Why, Spock, I didn't know you had one.

SPOCK: I do not often think of the past.

KIRKgently)Spock, who is it he reminds you of?

SPOCK (through the haze of memory): There was a young student... exceptionally gifted... possessing great intelligence. It was assumed that one day he would take his place amongst the great scholars of Vulcan. But he was a revolutionary.

KIRK: What do you mean?

SPOCK: The knowledge and experience he sought were forbidden by Vulcan belief.

KIRK: Forbidden?

SPOCK: He rejected his logical upbringing and embraced the animal passions of our ancestors.

KIRK: Why?

SPOCK: He believed that the key to self-knowledge was emotion... not logic.

McCOY: Imagine that. A passionate Vulcan.

SPOCK: When he encouraged others to follow him, he was banished from Vulcan, never to return.

In there he states that he was a "revolutionary" that he was banished for encouraging others to accept their emotions. And later on spock tells him,

SPOCK: You are my brother, but you do not know me. I am not the outcast boy you left behind. Since that time I have found myself and my place in the world... here... among these people... my shipmates. This ship is my life.

Spock was an outcast as a child because being half human he was not in control of his emotions and was not pure vulcan...

 

[Therin of Andor]

Unicron said:
Efrosians have never been referred to outside of the publicity photographs or backstage. So while you can argue they are official, fans are free to ignore them.

Sure, but don't get upset when reading the FASA materials, "Cinefantastique", or novels such as "In the Name of Honor" or the "Titan" series. Efrosians rule!

I realize trailers aren't canon, but have you seen the Efrosian UFP President's Efrosian wife? That's no Deltan, unless she's wearing a wig for some reason.

I'd much rather seeing new info on an existing race than the creation of another minor race.

What new info?

If ST IV and ST VI gave us new information about Deltans, sure, but all we have are two very different alien species and you want to shoehorn them into one species? To what benefit?

 

[Kryton]

Re: Vulcan emotions.

When Sarek asked the Vulcan elders to transfer Spock's Katra from McCoy to the regenerated Spock body, it was suggested that the process was only in legend and it is illogical to request the procedure.

Sarek (a full-blooded Vulcan) responded that where his SON is concerned, his logic is ... uncertain.

Vulcan logic is a discipline. It's not a physiological trait (though there is evidence when Parmen made him laugh that itensely, forced emotions could be unduly stressful on a Vulcan, possibly through not being accustomed to endorphins, etc. that such a reaction can generate).

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Uhm...

There were male Deltans seen in STIV in the Federation Council chambers and they were definitely bald just like Ilia. Whether or not you want to accept the "Efrosian" label for the Saratoga helmsman and the STVI President, they aren't Deltan. Novelisations are most definitely not at all canonical and, if I may say so, it often seemed as if their authors were smoking crack during the process of writing them.

-MMoM

 

[Turtletrekker]

Wow. Forgive me for saying so, but this discussion is, in the canonical words of Montgomery Scott, "...at warp 13 we're goin' nowhere mighty fast."

 

[Tallguy]

Turtletrekker said:
Wow. Forgive me for saying so, but this discussion is, in the canonical words of Montgomery Scott, "...at warp 13 we're goin' nowhere mighty fast."

Yes we are! No we're not! Yes we are, and publicity stills prove it! No we're not, and warp 13 isn't canon any more! Yes it is, and Berman sucks! No he doesn- Ok, you've got me on that one. But he wasn't a Deltan!

Heh heh heh...

 

[Therin of Andor]

Turtletrekker said:
Wow. Forgive me for saying so, but this discussion is, in the canonical words of Montgomery Scott, "...at warp 13 we're goin' nowhere mighty fast."

Who said ST fans were stubborn?

 

[Unicron]

hutt359 said:

Unicron said:As others have pointed out, Vulcans are not robots. They have emotions, but because they are usually suppressed does not make them nonexistent. And Sybok was not expelled from Vulcan because he favored emotions, but because he attacked other Vulcans trying to rescue his mother's katra. Both of them were under the influence of the being that pretended to be God.

Where do you get that bit about the katra, because it isn't in the movie...

That is true, and the movie does imply that Sybok's quest for emotion was his main reason for exile. However, this information comes from the novelization, and the conversation you referenced is fleshed out more than it is in the movie. Actually, the novel is better in a lot of respects. The line about the knowledge Sybok sought being "forbidden" and his embrace of emotions were both part of the influence of the being playing God. After his mother died, he tried to steal her katra so he could take it to Sha Ka Ree when he found it.

I think it makes more sense too, because it would not be logical for a Vulcan to be exiled merely for favoring emotion. If it were, the Vulcans would never be able to get along with the majority of emotional races in the galaxy.

 

[Data Holmes]

Unicron said:

hutt359 said:

Unicron said:As others have pointed out, Vulcans are not robots. They have emotions, but because they are usually suppressed does not make them nonexistent. And Sybok was not expelled from Vulcan because he favored emotions, but because he attacked other Vulcans trying to rescue his mother's katra. Both of them were under the influence of the being that pretended to be God.

Where do you get that bit about the katra, because it isn't in the movie...

That is true, and the movie does imply that Sybok's quest for emotion was his main reason for exile. However, this information comes from the novelization, and the conversation you referenced is fleshed out more than it is in the movie. Actually, the novel is better in a lot of respects. The line about the knowledge Sybok sought being "forbidden" and his embrace of emotions were both part of the influence of the being playing God. After his mother died, he tried to steal her katra so he could take it to Sha Ka Ree when he found it.

I think it makes more sense too, because it would not be logical for a Vulcan to be exiled merely for favoring emotion. If it were, the Vulcans would never be able to get along with the majority of emotional races in the galaxy.

Novels aren't cannon.

 

[Tallguy]

hutt359 said:
Novels aren't cannon.

Or even canon.

 

[cardinal biggles]

 

[Data Holmes]

Tallguy said:

hutt359 said:
Novels aren't cannon.

Or even canon.

You'd think that after six years on here, I'd have figured out the whole canon/cannon thing.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

When in doubt, stick another 'n' in.

I'm up to cannnnon by now.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

hutt359 said:

Tallguy said:

hutt359 said:
Novels aren't cannon.

Or even canon.

As long as you're not getting shot out of either, I think you're okay.

 

[Unicron]

They may not be canon, but I'll admit sometimes I wish they were, as the Star Wars novelizations are. In some cases like TFF, they're better than the film.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Unicron said:
They may not be canon, but I'll admit sometimes I wish they were, as the Star Wars novelizations are. In some cases like TFF, they're better than the film.

TFF novel was one of the better movie adaptions, it seemed to organically fit in and expand upon the movie some of the other movie adaptions come across as forced.

Sharr

 

[Unicron]

I agree, and I think the same is true of the TUC novelization. It expands on Kirk's antagonism towards the Klingons (Carol Marcus was seriously injured in a recent Klingon raid, as was mentioned in another thread) and the silly scene with the translation books is fixed. The UT wasn't available because the saboteurs disabled it, and the crew had to use the books in a pinch. Also, the Enterprise's torpedo system gives off a small neutrino surge when it is activated; this gives better context to the scenes where Kronos One is attacked, and Chekov's line about a neutron surge "that large" being produced by a ship.

 

[Jessica_Alba]

The Mighty Monkey of Mim said:
Uhm...

There were male Deltans seen in STIV in the Federation Council chambers and they were definitely bald just like Ilia. Whether or not you want to accept the "Efrosian" label for the Saratoga helmsman and the STVI President, they aren't Deltan. Novelisations are most definitely not at all canonical and, if I may say so, it often seemed as if their authors were smoking crack during the process of writing them.

-MMoM

I'll go with that.

That sounds the most plausible out of all the other reasonings I've read so far in this thread.

 

[Anwar]

If you have to read a novel to better understand the movie, then the movie failed in fully explaining itself.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Anwar said:
If you have to read a novel to better understand the movie, then the movie failed in fully explaining itself.

Any movie that "fully explains itself" does not promote discussion.

I like finding answers to plot points not hammered to death by a movie script, and reading novelizations enable a professional writer to join us on the fun search for explanations. Otherwise, studios should just license the rights for book companies to publish the movie script, and not adapt it at all. Scripts, while informative, make for very cold reading.