My gripe about ST6:TUC

[cardinal biggles]

Anthony said:
No, I don't know you very well. Should I?

Anthony said:
Nice try. Won't cut it, though. You are not of the Body of the Universal Trek Church of Selective Canonicity.

I don't know what your major maladjustment is, but it's going to stop now.

The other posters have been nothing but polite and patient with you in trying to discuss this, and you just keep on acting like an asshole and throwing it in their faces. If you can't even show some courtesy in how you respond, then it's time for your part in this discussion to end.

 

[Kryton]

Listen to the moderator.

Drop the keyboard. Drop it NOW!

(Whoa! My Inner Bauer came out! Yikes!)

 

[Anthony]

Oh, please...

 

[Timo]

One-liners are the secret to quick promotions around here, true.

Oops, that parsed to two lines on my screen. Oh, well. Good luck on your quest for authority in any case.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Anthony, don't push it.

 

[Unicron]

Meh. Personally I still prefer them being Deltans, because the absence of supporting dialogue doesn't make the official photos canon for me. As far as I've always heard, and gotten from Therin's well-written article, the name Efrosian never existed in any other official capacity besides the handful of stills, and the backstage crew who invented the term didn't even bother to tell Mel Efros at the time the movie was made.

To be fair, they are not identified onscreen as Deltans either, but then neither are the aliens who are called male Deltans in the stills. So the name Efrosian has as much canonical value to me as Saavik being half-Romulan. It's not canon because it was cut out. Saavik is Vulcan.

 

[Tallguy]

Unicron said:
Meh. Personally I still prefer them being Deltans, because the absence of supporting dialogue doesn't make the official photos canon for me. As far as I've always heard, and gotten from Therin's well-written article, the name Efrosian never existed in any other official capacity besides the handful of stills, and the backstage crew who invented the term didn't even bother to tell Mel Efros at the time the movie was made.

So it's kind of like Jefferies' Tubes?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Unicron said:
Meh. Personally I still prefer them being Deltans

Why? Although there was no mention of the baldness factor in TMP itself, Gene Roddenberry certainly intended hairlessness to be a trait of Deltans. We see bald Deltans wearing Deltan robes (made for TMP, and headpieces made for Persis to wear around the Paramount lot) in TMP, ST IV and ST VI.

When Vonda McIntyre described one of Jedda and Zinaida's other partners (in ST IV novelization) as having "fine, rose-coloured hair down to his knees" I was very disappointed. It seemed to go against other excellent work with Deltans (such as "Dwellers in the Crucible"), although she was probably miffed that Jedda ended up with a thick head of black hair in ST II.

The Saratoga alien in ST IV is a marvellous makeup. So distinctive. The skin complexion they used on Nick Ramos was a pale orange, they created white contact lenses, and they gave him such distinctive long hair - the longest hair we've seen on a male Starfleet alien since the native Americans with braids in TMP.

I can't imagine the makeup artists saying, "Good morning Nick, today we make you into a alien from the same planet as Lieutenant Ilia." And he certainly didn't emulate aspects of Persis Khambatta's distinctive delivery - her accent was exquisite.

Similarly, the ST VI makeup artists would have explained to Kurtwood Smith that his makeup once appeared in ST IV, not TMP.

What's so bad about Efrosians coming from Efros Delta, the consensus chosen by recent ST novelists? Someone from Efros Delta might be called a Deltan for short. But they are not the same race as Ilia's people.

the name Efrosian never existed in any other official capacity besides the handful of stills, and the backstage crew who invented the term

Which led to its use in the licensed, approved "ST IV Sourcebook Update" by FASA. The same canonical weight as the ST IV novelization.

And then by "Cinefantastique" magazine, in their coverage of ST IV.

It was years later that ST VI's novelization suggested that the UFP President wasn't Efrosian.

 

[SmoothieX]

Similarly, the ST VI makeup artists would have explained to Kurtwood Smith that his makeup once appeared in ST IV, not TMP.

At which point he would have explained that his foot appeared in your ass in all 6 movies.

(I'm sorry. I really am. I just can't pass that up no matter how hard I try.)

 

[Data Holmes]

Unicron said: So the name Efrosian has as much canonical value to me as Saavik being half-Romulan. It's not canon because it was cut out. Saavik is Vulcan.

Would you mind explaining the on screen fact that Saavik was crying during the funeral scene at the end of TWOK if she was a full vulcan?

 

[Manticore]

Because individuals of different species are different? It's always bugged me that just about every Vulcan is super-logical and follows logic to the same degree. That's the main reason why I don't like Saavik as a half-Romulan. If she's a full Vulcan, then it adds some much-needed diversity to the mix.

YMMV of course.

 

[SmoothieX]

hutt359 said:

Unicron said: So the name Efrosian has as much canonical value to me as Saavik being half-Romulan. It's not canon because it was cut out. Saavik is Vulcan.

Would you mind explaining the on screen fact that Saavik was crying during the funeral scene at the end of TWOK if she was a full vulcan?

Along the same lines as Spock's happy outburst when he found out Kirk was alive in Amok Time.

 

[Tallguy]

SmoothieX said:
Along the same lines as Spock's happy outburst when he found out Kirk was alive in Amok Time.

Because he's only half-Vulcan.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Tallguy said:

SmoothieX said:
Along the same lines as Spock's happy outburst when he found out Kirk was alive in Amok Time.

Because he's only half-Vulcan.

Its not like Vulcans are perfect or something. The point is they *do have emotions*, a full Vulcan is just as able to (Maybe more so) slip as a half-Vulcan - we should avoid pushing Spock's glimmer of emotions off to half his heritage, it cheapens the Vulcan species in my opinion to put them in such a box.

Sharr

 

[Data Holmes]

Sharr Khan said:

Tallguy said:

SmoothieX said:
Along the same lines as Spock's happy outburst when he found out Kirk was alive in Amok Time.

Because he's only half-Vulcan.

Its not like Vulcans are perfect or something. The point is they *do have emotions*, a full Vulcan is just as able to (Maybe more so) slip as a half-Vulcan - we should avoid pushing Spock's glimmer of emotions off to half his heritage, it cheapens the Vulcan species in my opinion to put them in such a box.

Sharr

Vulcans who can't control their emotions are treated like... well, the only known on screen example of a vulcan who openly accepts their emotions is sybock, and he was banished from vulcan. Treated like a paria or something.


Tuvok was shown to have problems with controling his emotions as a child and was sent away to a vulcan master in hopes that he could be "helped".


It appears that vulcans unable to control their emotions are considered defective, and ones who choose to not control them as a problem...

 

[Sharr Khan]

It appears that vulcans unable to control their emotions are considered defective, and ones who choose to not control them as a problem...

All points that reinforce full Vulcans, do slip and or sometimes choose a different path in life. BTW were I to be introduced to the species by way of your examples I'd be real hesitant to see the Vulcan's as the "enlightened" species that they claim to be...

Realistically speaking, such as we can about a tv show even Vulcan's can't 100% of the time police themselves and their brethren - unless there's some type of Vulcan Taliban that goes around chastising Vulcans on the street and in their homes who do slip. No one, not even the "logical" have such total rein over a society and its individuals. Is the repression of free expression logical?

The Tuvok example I always took that was all about a family choice not a collective cultural one, not that Tuvok's teacher didn't lack a fierce undercurrent or anything...

Sharr

 

[Nebusj]

Sharr Khan said:
Its not like Vulcans are perfect or something. The point is they *do have emotions*, a full Vulcan is just as able to (Maybe more so) slip as a half-Vulcan - we should avoid pushing Spock's glimmer of emotions off to half his heritage, it cheapens the Vulcan species in my opinion to put them in such a box.

For example, see Sarek's pride in Spock's accomplishments as an officer, in ``Journey to Babel'', even before he's had his heart cut open and rejiggered; and his affection toward Amanda in the same scene.

It's a very bad idea on many counts to think Vulcan stoicism and emotional control means they will never emote or even inflect words; it leads to scenes of barely distinguishable people dressed grayly mumbling to each other.

 

[Mysterion]

hutt359 said:

Unicron said: So the name Efrosian has as much canonical value to me as Saavik being half-Romulan. It's not canon because it was cut out. Saavik is Vulcan.

Would you mind explaining the on screen fact that Saavik was crying during the funeral scene at the end of TWOK if she was a full vulcan?

Easy: While Vulcan, she was also still reletively young (for a vulcan) and somewhat undisciplined emotionally.

Look at Spock in "The Cage" and even "Where No Man Has Gone Before". Very emotional compared to his later appearances in TOS.

 

[Sharr Khan]

it leads to scenes of barely distinguishable people dressed grayly mumbling to each other.

Now that's a gripe I've with modern Trek. For a culture that embraces the concept of IDIC - Vulcans sure do come across as being very monolithic in dress, behavior, ect. Not that this isn't an issue for other Trek aliens either - just its so much more ironic given the Vulcan supposed respect for diversity.

Tuvok's bearded teacher, who it seems might be a cousin of
Sub-Commander Tal is one of the few exceptions. He struck me as being in vein of Sarek.

Sharr

 

[Unicron]

Tallguy said:
So it's kind of like Jefferies' Tubes?

No, the name Jeffries Tube is canonical because it's been used in dialogue. Efrosians have never been referred to outside of the publicity photographs or backstage. So while you can argue they are official, fans are free to ignore them. Just as I and many other fans ignore the canonical "Constitution refit" name for the movie design. It doesn't really fit, and "Enterprise class" is a lot easier on the ears.

Therin of Andor said:
Why? Although there was no mention of the baldness factor in TMP itself, Gene Roddenberry certainly intended hairlessness to be a trait of Deltans. We see bald Deltans wearing Deltan robes (made for TMP, and headpieces made for Persis to wear around the Paramount lot) in TMP, ST IV and ST VI.

* shrugs * Why not? Personally I always thought the make-up was pretty cool, and I thought it would make a nice contrast between male and female Deltans. And Trek has never been good at providing background details for a lot of its races. I'd much rather seeing new info on an existing race than the creation of another minor race.

As for the Deltan extras, they're background characters. Nobody in the audience is going to know they're Deltans unless it's stated in dialogue, or maybe if they have publicity photos. Otherwise, they're random background characters if they're even visible for any duration.

hutt359 said:

Would you mind explaining the on screen fact that Saavik was crying during the funeral scene at the end of TWOK if she was a full vulcan?

As others have pointed out, Vulcans are not robots. They have emotions, but because they are usually suppressed does not make them nonexistent. And Sybok was not expelled from Vulcan because he favored emotions, but because he attacked other Vulcans trying to rescue his mother's katra. Both of them were under the influence of the being that pretended to be God.