My gripe about ST6:TUC
- Thread starter alpha_leonis
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The line was "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?" Nichelle wouldn't say it, so they gave it to Chekov. Which made a LOT less sense. (There may have been another line as well, but that one I know for certain.)
Now, MY take on the events (heh heh heh) is that Our Heroes weren't being racist at all. They didn't think the Klingons were bad because they were ALIEN, they thought they were bad because every time them met them, somebody got tortured and / or killed. (Maybe I'm missing an episode. How often did the Klingons try to kill everyone in TAS?) After a while you get a little shy about these sorts of things. Unless you live in the 24th century, I guess.
My gripe about ST6 is the same about ST3, and many eps of TOS: Everyone in starfleet except Kirk and Co. are stupid and/or evil. Ah, well.
Now, MY take on the events (heh heh heh) is that Our Heroes weren't being racist at all. They didn't think the Klingons were bad because they were ALIEN, they thought they were bad because every time them met them, somebody got tortured and / or killed. (Maybe I'm missing an episode. How often did the Klingons try to kill everyone in TAS?) After a while you get a little shy about these sorts of things. Unless you live in the 24th century, I guess.
My gripe about ST6 is the same about ST3, and many eps of TOS: Everyone in starfleet except Kirk and Co. are stupid and/or evil. Ah, well.
I just recalled a number of parallels to earlier Trek. In "Balance of Terror", Lieutenant Stiles had a personal hatred of all things Romulan, due to his grandfather being killed in the Romulan War. He then proceeded to apply the same prejudice towards Spock, after they discovered that the Romulans happened to have the same ears. By the end of the episode, Stiles had seen the error of his ways, thanks to the enlightened leadership of his superior officers. Romulans were still enemies, but Spock was no longer lumped in with them.
And aren't these also the same characters who worked with Kang and company to defeat a common enemy in "Day of the Dove"?
Even better, back in TSFS, within literally hours of David's death, Kirk spared the life of Maltz -- the one surviving officer from the same Klingon crew that was responsible for murdering David in the first place. Maltz even asked to be killed, and Kirk refused.
And even in TFF, after being chased to the faux-God's planet in the center of the galaxy by yet another rogue Klingon ship, Kirk is saved from destruction by those same Klingons (if only reluctantly, under orders from General Korrd).
So why, then, after so many examples to the contrary, is Kirk suddenly comfortable with letting all Klingons die? Don't get me wrong, I think TUC is a good story. Part of me thinks, however, that the Enterprise folks were replaced by their Mirror-universe counterparts.
Edit: Regarding the Federation President -- I watched the movie with my wife the other night, and at the end of it she had no clue that the President was an alien. She thought he was just a human with an eccentric appearance.
And aren't these also the same characters who worked with Kang and company to defeat a common enemy in "Day of the Dove"?
Even better, back in TSFS, within literally hours of David's death, Kirk spared the life of Maltz -- the one surviving officer from the same Klingon crew that was responsible for murdering David in the first place. Maltz even asked to be killed, and Kirk refused.
And even in TFF, after being chased to the faux-God's planet in the center of the galaxy by yet another rogue Klingon ship, Kirk is saved from destruction by those same Klingons (if only reluctantly, under orders from General Korrd).
So why, then, after so many examples to the contrary, is Kirk suddenly comfortable with letting all Klingons die? Don't get me wrong, I think TUC is a good story. Part of me thinks, however, that the Enterprise folks were replaced by their Mirror-universe counterparts.
Edit: Regarding the Federation President -- I watched the movie with my wife the other night, and at the end of it she had no clue that the President was an alien. She thought he was just a human with an eccentric appearance.
I think that was actually Commander Eddington.
Forehead bumps eccentric? Nah, just a big headache. Tough job, being a president.
While I do admit that ST6 isn't a perfect movie, I never felt that the characters were acting out-of-character. At least it never seemed that blatant.
I think most of the bigotry that the crew shows mostly comes from the fact that the "Klingons are our friends now" idea is pretty much dumped in our heroes laps and they don't really get a chance to digest this new development in the galaxy.
Considering the powers have been more or less enemies for the past 50+ years, being told overnight that you have to accept them as friends is hard to do. Erasing someone labeled as the enemy isn't like flicking off a light switch.
In fact, if you notice, all of the bigotry comments happen in the first half of the movie, when they are told this bombshell and then the subsequent forced dinner...which was a complete disaster on both sides.
I think Kirk's "I never trusted Klingons and I never will" comment was more of a knee-jerk reaction to the situation than anything else.
I always took Chekov's "Guess who's coming to dinner" to be more of a wry, off-handing thing, not designed to indicate bigotry (despite the movie reference). The after dinner reaction seemed more like a relief comments (as someone mentioned above). And Scotty's "Klingon bitch" comment, I always felt, came from him just being pissed at their current situation and is ready to blame anyone in anger.
As someone else mentioned, Kirk has worked with Klingons before in DotD, but that time, they didn't work together until they both realized they were being pitted against one another. Before that, they were hell bent on killing one another.
Just my 2 cents.
No, that's his son.
I think most of the bigotry that the crew shows mostly comes from the fact that the "Klingons are our friends now" idea is pretty much dumped in our heroes laps and they don't really get a chance to digest this new development in the galaxy.
Considering the powers have been more or less enemies for the past 50+ years, being told overnight that you have to accept them as friends is hard to do. Erasing someone labeled as the enemy isn't like flicking off a light switch.
In fact, if you notice, all of the bigotry comments happen in the first half of the movie, when they are told this bombshell and then the subsequent forced dinner...which was a complete disaster on both sides.
I think Kirk's "I never trusted Klingons and I never will" comment was more of a knee-jerk reaction to the situation than anything else.
I always took Chekov's "Guess who's coming to dinner" to be more of a wry, off-handing thing, not designed to indicate bigotry (despite the movie reference). The after dinner reaction seemed more like a relief comments (as someone mentioned above). And Scotty's "Klingon bitch" comment, I always felt, came from him just being pissed at their current situation and is ready to blame anyone in anger.
As someone else mentioned, Kirk has worked with Klingons before in DotD, but that time, they didn't work together until they both realized they were being pitted against one another. Before that, they were hell bent on killing one another.
Just my 2 cents.
Kryton said:
I thought he was a dumbass?
No, that's his son.
The novelization does help explain the movie. Which is the very reason I stopped going to see Star Trek movies in the theater after The Voyage Home. I got sick of it.
Hikaru gets command, and the scenes in Voyager's Flashback should have been in this movie. Kor, Kang, and Koloth. Bring 'em in. Another wasted opportunity.
Hikaru gets command, and the scenes in Voyager's Flashback should have been in this movie. Kor, Kang, and Koloth. Bring 'em in. Another wasted opportunity.
You chose to stop watching ST movies on the big screen, as they were intended to be seen, because Vonda McInytre and JM Dillard were able to add scenes and characters which the productions couldn't afford?
He was an Efrosian, not a Deltan.
And Therin didn't say the president was a Klingon, he said other people (presumably folks who are only casually aware of Trek) asked him if the guy was a Klingon. Therin being Therin, I'm sure he set them straight.
And Therin didn't say the president was a Klingon, he said other people (presumably folks who are only casually aware of Trek) asked him if the guy was a Klingon. Therin being Therin, I'm sure he set them straight.
Anthony
Lieutenant Commander
Do you even REALIZE that ep of VOY was filmed [cooked up] AFTER TUC left theaters? 
Therefore, how could they insert apocryphal events into a movie from that ridiculous ep [which showed Valtane dying WHEN he was obviously alive at the end of TUC] when they occured later?
This raises an interesting point why that new movie had better be a complete reboot, while there's still something left to salvage it from people who resemble insects stuck in amber in terms of their rationale.
Therefore, how could they insert apocryphal events into a movie from that ridiculous ep [which showed Valtane dying WHEN he was obviously alive at the end of TUC] when they occured later?
This raises an interesting point why that new movie had better be a complete reboot, while there's still something left to salvage it from people who resemble insects stuck in amber in terms of their rationale.
Anthony said:
He wasn't a Klingon, for crying out loud.
He was a D-E-L-T-A-N, just like Ra-Drei the Saratoga's helm officer in TVH.
Klingon? Where in the ^$#@ did you get that from?
You don't know me very well. "Efrosian" was coined by the production crew, as a salute to Mel Efros, and appeared in captions attached to official Paramount publicity photos of the Saratoga alien in ST IV.
This article on my blog explains all.
And yes, I've met a lot of people over the years who assumed the ST VI Efrosian president was a Klingon. I didn't say I was one of them.
Well, it doesn't get explained better than that, Therin! It's funny the things from the novels that I cling to. Jedda in ST II being Deltan for some reason is one of them. And telling me Saavik isn't half-Romulan is fighting talk. (Plus, that's not just from the novels.)
Anthony said:
Do you even REALIZE that ep of VOY was filmed [cooked up] AFTER TUC left theaters?
Therefore, how could they insert apocryphal events into a movie from that ridiculous ep [which showed Valtane dying WHEN he was obviously alive at the end of TUC] when they occured later?
Star Trek has shown us many times that Star Fleet officers can and have come back from death.
So, it is very possible that Valtane did in fact die at that point, but they got him down to sickbay in time to get him started again.
This raises an interesting point why that new movie had better be a complete reboot, while there's still something left to salvage it from people who resemble insects stuck in amber in terms of their rationale.
Indeed.
Indeed, my mistake. Eddington's was the comparison to the Borg. Quarks was about the savagery of humans in certain situations.
