My DS9 Rewatch Odyssey

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by ananta, Jan 5, 2021.

  1. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My wife and I finished DS9 last year. I have seen every episode at least a dozen times. (This is true of pretty much the entire franchise before Abrams.) It was a real treat for many reasons.

    My second favorite thing about the rewatch was she saw certain things, as a new person, that I never even considered or thought about before. It's a wonderful treat to be able to enjoy something you've loved your whole life in a new way thanks to sharing it with someone, particularly with a loved one. I got to see scenes and episodes in a whole new light because of this. It's one of the reasons I love rewatching things... you can get something new almost every time.

    When we first met, she wasn't sure we'd even be compatible because of my love of scifi. In particular, she could 'never take alien makeup people seriously'. You know who her two favorite characters are? Quark and Garak.

    Plus, I got her into BSG, and she loved it so much, she put it above LOST, which was her favorite show, and DS9 is right up there for her, too. And she has seen multiple BABYLON 5 episodes with me, as well as PICARD, and we are currently watching TNG. We are at the season 6 finale now. Her favorite character is Data (like me), and it looks like we'll be watching VOYAGER and ENTERPRISE.

    Oh, I didn't mention my favorite part of rewatching.

    This may be the first time, as a married man, that I can say these words and it be actually the truth.

    I won. :)
     
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  2. ananta

    ananta Captain Captain

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    That’s interesting, I didn’t know that. Unfortunately, my problems with the episode remain. I just don’t think it was very good. What I think sometimes happens is that scripts get rewritten a number of times and this can dilute the original idea or story message, and I feel that may have happened here. What did you think of it?
     
  3. ananta

    ananta Captain Captain

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    Loved reading this! You got yourself a keeper :) My exes either hated sci-fi or, in one case, liked Star Trek but hated DS9! What was that about! I did try to get him to give it a try, but when I put on “The Visitor” and he literally fell asleep after ten minutes (I kid you not), I just gave up! Now I’m happily single :lol:
     
  4. LadyMondegreen

    LadyMondegreen Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    This is such a cute story! We are both first-timers to DS9, but my fiance has told me much the same thing about our TNG watch, which was new to me but old to him since his mom is a huge TNG fan. As soon as I fall for the characters, I'm completely sold on a Trek series despite how silly any given episode might be, and I'm already at the point with DS9 :)

    Luckily for my fiance, though, I've been a sci-fi nerd (and nerd in general) since well before we started dating, and I've been a TOS fan for a long time...We met at a board game night and got together after we were in a campaign of Delta Green (an RPG based on Call of Cthulhu). He told me the first time he came to my dorm room and saw my Enterprise schematic poster he breathed a sigh of relief.

    And now we're having a Trek-themed wedding next year. So I guess we both lucked out ;)
     
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  5. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree that "Melora" is unfortunately a pretty weak episode. It's cool that it was written by someone disabled, so at least there was good perspective on the story, but obviously having good insight into a story doesn't equate to being able to write it well...or prevent a well-written story from being compromised by revisions (I have no idea what may have been the case here; I only know the end product).

    "Blood Oath" could have been a very interesting story if Jadzia was disabled.
     
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  6. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Rookie!
     
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  7. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I pretty much agreed with what you wrote about "MELORA". A good idea that was trying to send a good message, but it just fell flat. I think it did suffer from too many rewrites. If I remember correctly, 4 people were credited with the teleplay, including Michael Piller. Who knows how many others were involved, because rules back then allowed an episode to have only 4 credited people for a teleplay, with 2 on story. (See "Yesterday's Enterprise".) That tells me it went through a bunch of changes which might have harmed it in the end. It's possible that it actually was an improvement on what was before, but we have no way of knowing. I know for a fact Piller and Somers died. No idea about James Crocker (also a season 2 writer) and Steven Baum, so I doubt we'll ever really know.

    My biggest issue was Melora herself... she was really grating on my nerves for half the episode. The Klingon restaurant bit was my favorite part.

    Romance of the week was virtually never done well in ANY of the shows. In fact, some of the absolute worst episodes of each show is a romance of the week. ("PRECIOUS CARGO", anyone?)
     
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  8. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A TREK themed wedding? Awesome! You know, there is a VERY cool wedding that I wonder if you will be taking elements from, but I don't know how far along DS9 you are, so I won't spoil the contents.
     
  9. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think that there were a few moderate successes on TNG, like The Outcast and The Lesson. However, I think the actors should be credited, not the writers.
     
  10. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, the actors definitely carried the weight of those episodes. But an actor can only take a bad/modest script so far...
     
  11. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    Don't get me wrong, I would not trade Sirella for all the targs on Qo'noS. And, over the course of our marriage, I've won more than my fair share of battles between us; but in the end, I know - she... will win the war.
    - Martok
    Congratulations on winning one of the battles! Qapla'! :beer:

    As far as Melora, her character was good, and I was even fine with the combativeness until we got to know her. It's like she is testing the DS9 crew without even necessarily being aware of it. When they passed, she could relax a bit.

    The Bashir love story, though, needs to be shoved out an airlock. I know, for his love life it's a pain in the butt being chief medical officer because that means he's EVERYONE's doctor, so NOBODY within reach is fair game... but that's his job and he accepted it.
     
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  12. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    Falling asleep after 10 minutes probably means he was sleep deprived, not bored. But I have no explanation for liking Star Trek but hating DS9. :shrug:
     
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  13. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Perhaps he was a 'Herbert'...
     
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  14. ananta

    ananta Captain Captain

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    Congratulations! A Trek themed wedding sounds such fun! I hope you’ll considering posting something about it on the forum, although I do understand that many people like to keep their privacy :)

    “Lessons” was a nice little episode, mainly due to the chemistry between Picard and Darren. Every so often they strike it lucky with the actors and their chemistry really ignites the episode. It’s quite rare though. As for “The Outcast”, I had a lot of issues with that ep, it’s best not to get me started on that one :lol:

    I still feel they overplayed it in the early scenes. She’s particularly disrespectful to Sisko, her commanding officer, making little effort to be polite and show the due respect. She is still a lowly ensign after all! But I did warm to her afterward, mainly because Daphne Ashbrook was quite charming and really did her best with what she was given.

    To be fair, he did fall asleep a fair bit after work. I think the reason he didn’t like DS9 was that, like most others in that category, he only watched a few episodes in season one and didn’t watch the rest of the series. I’ve never met anyone who watched as far as seasons four and five who didn’t love the show. I wouldn’t trust such a person’s judgement! But I never managed to get him to give DS9 a second chance, which is sad.
     
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  15. ananta

    ananta Captain Captain

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    “Rules of Acquisition”

    [​IMG]
    Hands off, these are MY lobes!

    I’m not sure if this is still a minority view, but whenever I come back to DS9 I’m always surprised by how much I enjoy these early Ferengi episodes. “The Nagus” was a low-key first season highlight, and although “Rules of Acquisition” is a tad weaker, it’s still entertaining throughout. It also has the unlikely distinction of boasting the show’s first mention of the Dominion! The fact this important introduction happens in the middle of a lightweight Ferengi farce underscores the devilishly twisted way that DS9 tends to subvert expectations.

    Once again, Wallace Shawn is marvellously entertaining as the larger than life Nagus. The scene in Sisko’s office and Zek’s lascivious interactions with Kira make for some amusingly awkward viewing. I especially liked the Kira/Dax scene where Jadzia expresses her fondness for the Ferengi. She admits that they’re basically sleazy assholes, but suggests that once you accept that fact, they’re actually pretty fun.

    One of the things I love most about this episode is, in fact, Jadzia. This very much feels like the birth of Jadzia 2.0; the roguish, fun-loving, more joyous and wry Dax that takes the place of the rather dull, reserved and prim Lieutenant we saw in the first season. Terry Farrell is so much more confident and comfortable playing this Dax, and she brings a nice charisma to the part.

    I have to highlight the scene where Pel confesses her feelings about Quark to Jadzia as one of my favourite scenes of the entire series. Basically, Jadzia surmises that Pel loves Quark before she realises Pel is actually a woman. This is probably the first time in Trek’s history that they even acknowledge that same sex love exists! Furthermore, Jadzia’s reaction is so perfectly accepting, demonstrating that, to her, it is perfectly normal and no big deal at all. When I first saw this, as a gay fourteen year-old struggling to accept and deal with my sexuality, it was SUCH a heartening moment. Back in the 90’s, there were no gay role models anywhere. In fact, I didn’t know any openly gay people, and I was convinced that if anyone found out I’d not only be beaten to a pulp at school but disowned by all my family and friends. It was really a different world back then. Looking back, it’s amazing that Trek could have been so progressive and yet so behind when it came to gay representation. This was a subtle moment, to be, sure, and it speaks to how poor television and film was back then at even acknowledging gayness in anything other than a negative, stereotypical way. But it meant a lot to me, and still does all these years later,

    The Pel storyline is enjoyable and begins what would become a long running arc on DS9 about the place of women in Ferengi society. It’s nowhere near as successful as later storylines with Quark’s mother, but it neatly foreshadows things to come. I enjoyed seeing Rom’s jealousy of “that flabby eared interloper” and his subsequent efforts to discredit Pel. The central plot, involving negotiations with a Gamma Quadrant race called the Dozi, is insubstantial and fluffy, but it’s engaging enough. The Dozi look like they’re straight out of Buck Rogers, but, as offbeat as they look, I actually found them a refreshingly change from Trek’s usual ‘forehead bump’ of the week aliens, which even by this point are getting pretty tired. They’re kind of fun, too, in an over the top, throwaway kind of manner.

    The weakest aspect of the episode is the love story between Pel and Quark. While Pel’s feelings are built up nicely, by the end we’re meant to believe that Quark had also developed feelings for Pel, and I just didn’t see enough evidence of that. As a result, I found the supposedly emotional coda something of a misfire. I also feel that while the story is about how women are just as capable as men, it ultimately falls prey to age old gender-based stereotypes. Specifically, to make Pel look smart, Quark ends up being dumbed down somewhat, and we end up with the old comedy tropes of the men being generally clueless and weak, and the women being irrational and driven by their emotions.

    The scene where Pel interrupts the meal with Zek to reveal the truth was great fun in terms of comedy (“you like my lobes? Good—well you can HAVE them!”) but it didn’t make much sense in terms of Pel’s motive. Why did she ‘come out’ to Zek? I can only assume she wasn’t thinking straight and flew into a hormonal tantrum because Quark had spurned her. I can forgive it, however, because it’s genuinely quite funny (and the way Shawn delivers the line “SHAME ON YOU!” is simply hilarious).

    Overall though, a fun one, if just a little fluffy and muddled in its message. Rating: 6.5
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2021
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I took notice of, and also loved, the conversation between Dax and Pel.
     
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  17. LadyMondegreen

    LadyMondegreen Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I also loved that Jadzia and Pel moment, and it makes perfect sense -- I'd assume that most joined Trill, being a merging of the personalities and experiences of several different hosts of different genders and sexualities, would probably be to at least some degree bisexual. Dax has experiences of being attracted to both women and men, it's no big deal in Trill society, and it doesn't even occur to her that a man being attracted to a man would be particularly unusual in that moment.
     
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  18. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would agree that the episode has issues. However, I find that the romance itself, viewed apart from the "very special episode" theme, is fairly strong. Moreover, I give Frakes a lot of credit for making it seem as if this relationship itself was supremely important to Riker, not something that he was willing to surrender. Riker's disappointment at the end of the episode is palpable.
     
  19. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I definitely agree that the Dax character comes off here as a rebirth version. And there's even an in-universe reason to explain this!

    After the very recent events of "INVASIVE PROCEDURES", Jadzia probably took a hard look at herself and realized she was missing out by not letting go a bit. For a brief time, she lost Dax, and she felt empty. Now that she was rejoined, she realized, truly, what a gift the symbiote is and fully embraced it.

    Now, we never see a scene like this, but I can totally see this happening in her quarters. Or even in Sisko's office as they play a game of chess.

    That's my take on it, anyway.
     
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  20. LadyMondegreen

    LadyMondegreen Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Also, I thought the episode would have been stronger if it had ended with Pel betraying Quark for profit in some way despite her feelings -- I think it would have been more on-message for the idea that the Ferengi's treatment of women has no basis, showing that there are at least some women (even if they are a minority) who are just as greedy and businesslike as men. I think it could have also made for a good moment for Quark, where his anger at being betrayed (by a female!!) gives way to wonder at the fact that a female was good enough to swindle him...leading to at least beginning to take a genuine re-evaluating look at his beliefs.
     
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