My DS9 Rewatch Odyssey

[Farscape One]

Great review! (Though it was Scott MacDonald who played Goran'agar.)

I think the Jem'Hadar look was inspired by the rhinoceros, if i remember the Westmore interviews right. It definitely explains all the little protrusions throughout their face, which makes them look even more menacing.

I am glad they did this Worf subplot as early in the season as they did. Worf is one of those people who takes a while to change his ways and patterns, and being security chief for 7 years would be a hard habit to break. Getting this out of the way now leaves open other things for him the rest of his introductory DS9 season.

The Bashir/O'Brien story is a great one, and it was refreshing to see a friendship as tight as this one get challenged. Both people made excellent points, and it's hard to argue against either. Personally, when I was younger, I was more on Bashir's side. But in the last 10 years or so, I lean more toward O'Brien's view. People do not change easily, and that's actually a nice, subtle connection between the two stories. While Worf can change, though with some difficulty, the Jem'Hadar are almost certainly not going to. It's hardwired in their genes AND their entire upbringing. I absolutely loved the Jem'Hadar, but you definitely did not want to hang around these guys for long or often.

The ending is well done, as is the entire episode. DS9 season 4 is still hitting it out of the park.

 

[Swedish Borg]

@ananta: Great review!
I have a couple of things to say about the episode though.

This is the last episode where the Jems eat. Because from this moment on the writers decided to stop making sense and made the Jems a species that don't eat. Idiotic but well, the founders don't eat either and they can change their mass at will from a pound to a thousand pounds just like that, which is also stupid. I just have not to think about that when I watch an episode or it'll ruin the experience.

You might say that it's not exclusive to Star Trek. In Alien they don't eat either and grow incredibly fast!!!

But well, if you let nonsense stop you from enjoying a movie, there wouldn't be many left...


Also, Odo is the one that screwed the pooch here. I mean his "I don't spread the word when I am..." Speech is just idiotic. I am pretty sure he could have told Worf what he was doing and Worf would have stopped meddling. Worf is a Starfleet officer and Starfleet officers are capable of keeping a secret as long as they're told to. And that's why Odo didn't mention Worf in his report (probably) because he realized that he had made a mistake.

 

[Farscape One]

Actually, only in "THE ABANDONED" did a Jem'Hadar eat, and that was only before they realized he didn't need to.

When Goran'agar said they 'ate the same food' he did from those years ago, he probably was trying to find something that may work once his supply of White ran out. He realized it was pointless because he thought it was a factor in his 'cure'.

I don't think it's a stretch to say the Jem'Hadar don't need to eat because the White probably gives their bodies a constant supply of nutrients that keep them strong every minute. Notice the tubes they each have are always flowing in the center, with a slot on either side... likely one slot of White is for the current flow, and the other the refill for as soon as the old one empties.

As for Odo not telling Worf, remember he just came aboard, so he won't trust him simply because he is brand new. And Odo is right in that he doesn't report to Worf... really, only Kira and Sisko are the ones who needed to know, since they are his only superiors on the station. I agree he didn't mention Worf in his report because he knew Worf had his heart in the right place, but just didn't know when to back off and just made an error.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Actually, only in "THE ABANDONED" did a Jem'Hadar eat, and that was only before they realized he didn't need to.

When Goran'agar said they 'ate the same food' he did from those years ago, he probably was trying to find something that may work once his supply of White ran out. He realized it was pointless because he thought it was a factor in his 'cure'.

He said "ate the same food" because he meant "ate the same food".

I don't think he would have lied to the man he was hoping would find a cure for the addiction. That would have been really stupid.

It would be like going to the doctor and hide symptoms from him. Nobody in his/her right mind would do something like that!!!

I don't think it's a stretch to say the Jem'Hadar don't need to eat because the White probably gives their bodies a constant supply of nutrients that keep them strong every minute. Notice the tubes they each have are always flowing in the center, with a slot on either side... likely one slot of White is for the current flow, and the other the refill for as soon as the old one empties.

I don't think you can rationalize that one away. For one thing, they call it a drug and not food. We're not addicted to food, we NEED it to live.
Second a small vile is far from enough to cater to a body's needs. Even if it was concentrated food, which at that level would make it powder-dry you'd still need water and for a body that size two or three liters a day.

As for Odo not telling Worf, remember he just came aboard, so he won't trust him simply because he is brand new. And Odo is right in that he doesn't report to Worf... really, only Kira and Sisko are the ones who needed to know, since they are his only superiors on the station. I agree he didn't mention Worf in his report because he knew Worf had his heart in the right place, but just didn't know when to back off and just made an error.

Odo made a mistake not telling Worf what he was doing and he realized it. Worf didn't make any errors he acted based on the information he had which was that Odo was looking the other way, while Quark was trading in illegal merchandise. At the very least made a citizen arrest which is something most civilized countries consider perfectly legal. Like if you see someone beating up his child, you're perfectly justified to intervene. A friend of mine once stopped a man from attempting to rape a person and broke his jaw. He was commended for his action and the magistrate deemed the use of force perfectly justified.

 

[Farscape One]

About the food dialogue, I was referring to when Goran'agar was first stranded on that planet. Once his supply of White ran out, he might have thought eating food from the planet could keep going a bit longer. But he didn't because he was never addicted to begin with. He later had his men eat the same things when he brought them there thinking it was a factor, which is why he mentioned it.

And the White is a drug, I agree. But the Jem'Hadar need it to live. After a while without it, they go crazy, then manifest physicsl symptoms, then eventually die. Bashir even noted this 'critical enzyme' in "THE ABANDONED". Food has much the same necessities as the White does for the Jem'Hadar, so I think it can be called their food as well as a drug.

And yes, a small vial is not enough, but they get the White regularly. Think of it like insulin for diabetics. I had to inject my grandmother with insulin 4 times per day. How is that different than a small vial for the Jem'Hadar?

As for Odo, yes, he may very well have thought precisely as you which is why he didn't report it. But he didn't need to tell Worf his plan, and I don't think it was a mistake. I don't think Worf would have told Odo if the roles were reversed, but I do think Worf would have omitted Odo's interference if the same situation happened. As we learn later in the season, those two have a lot in common, which is why that friction would occur. Two strong personalities like that? Conflict definitely will happen until they come to a later understanding. Like Garibaldi and Lochley on BABYLON 5.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

According to Behr, the line about eating was a mistake that wasn't caught. Therefore, Jem'hadar don't (need to) eat.

 

[dupersuper]

"DISTANT ORIGIN" was a great allegory about science and doctrine. Essentially a retelling of Galileo, which is still something that goes on with some people today.

I get the premise, but nothing about the execution blew me away. I didn't find it bad at all (aside from Chakotay's laughable theory on their origin), but just a perfectly fine episode.

In the case of "SHUTTLEPOD ONE" and "COGENITOR", particularly strong episodes in its first 2 seasons. The former was a great bottle show that showcased Trip and Reed really well, and the latter having a great morality dilemma.

Again, I didn't dislike Shuttlepod One, just thought it to was fine. A nice bit of development for the two characters, but nothing too deep. Cogenitor on the other hand...yikes. I'm not sure what they were trying to say at the end of that. A moral dilemma is great, but think it out before you call it an episode.

Still, I liked the other two; I just wouldn't rank them up with my faves like Measure of a Man, Duet, Inner Light and Visitor (and Court Martial, Corbomite Maneuver, Drumhead, Ethics, Offspring, Progress...).

I also have a soft spot for Andreas Katsulas, who portrayed G'Kar on BABYLON 5, one of THE best characters in scifi tv.

No argument on that one.

I don't think you can rationalize that one away. For one thing, they call it a drug and not food. We're not addicted to food, we NEED it to live.

So the Jem'Hadar aren't addicted to the white, as they need that to live?

 

[Swedish Borg]

...
So the Jem'Hadar aren't addicted to the white, as they need that to live?

True. Calling it an addiction is a bit of a stretch. It's similar to if you remember Jurassic Park the chemical imbalance that they had created in the dinos so that couldn't go for very long without a certain substance. The Dinos weren't addicted, they just needed that substance to survive.


It's funny because Jurassic Park came out at about the same time we first heard of the Jems.

 

[Swedish Borg]

About the food dialogue, I was referring to when Goran'agar was first stranded on that planet. Once his supply of White ran out, he might have thought eating food from the planet could keep going a bit longer. But he didn't because he was never addicted to begin with. He later had his men eat the same things when he brought them there thinking it was a factor, which is why he mentioned it.

And the White is a drug, I agree. But the Jem'Hadar need it to live. After a while without it, they go crazy, then manifest physicsl symptoms, then eventually die. Bashir even noted this 'critical enzyme' in "THE ABANDONED". Food has much the same necessities as the White does for the Jem'Hadar, so I think it can be called their food as well as a drug.

And yes, a small vial is not enough, but they get the White regularly. Think of it like insulin for diabetics. I had to inject my grandmother with insulin 4 times per day. How is that different than a small vial for the Jem'Hadar?

As for Odo, yes, he may very well have thought precisely as you which is why he didn't report it. But he didn't need to tell Worf his plan, and I don't think it was a mistake. I don't think Worf would have told Odo if the roles were reversed, but I do think Worf would have omitted Odo's interference if the same situation happened. As we learn later in the season, those two have a lot in common, which is why that friction would occur. Two strong personalities like that? Conflict definitely will happen until they come to a later understanding. Like Garibaldi and Lochley on BABYLON 5.

If the Jems don't eat they shouldn't have a digestive system and therefore be unable to eat. Her mouths would only serve to speak and breathe and occasionally to bite an enemy.

Why would they have an esophagus, a stomach, guts?

 

[Trekker09]

I thought the Jem' Hadar need for ketracel white was based on US soldiers getting addicted to drugs during war.

 

[Swedish Borg]

I thought the Jem' Hadar need for ketracel white was based on US soldiers getting addicted to drugs during war.

It's possible but the way they present it, it's something that they need to survive, not sure if that qualifies as an addiction.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

If the Jems don't eat they shouldn't have a digestive system and therefore be unable to eat.

It's likely that like the Vorta, the Founders modified an existing species. Whether true or not, the digestive system could be vestigial.

 

[Farscape One]

You know, I'd love to see exactly how the Dominion was founded. How long did it take the Founders to get the knowledge, expertise, and supplies to be so good at genetics? Who were the first servants? Were the other members as aggressive or maybe peaceful? Did they do to others like the Teplans with the Blight? (Which is particularly evil.)

 

[Bad Thoughts]

How long did it take the Founders to get the knowledge, expertise, and supplies to be so good at genetics?

Given that they (likely) imitate organisms down to the molecular level, deep knowledge of genetics should not only be intuitive, it would probably precede spoken language and math.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Given that they (likely) imitate organisms down to the molecular level, deep knowledge of genetics should not only be intuitive, it would probably precede spoken language and math.

Not sure if it's at the molecular level, after all, they can't reproduce tastebuds, the sense of smell and they have no stomach and probably no internal organs at all. Odo once said that he didn't have a heart, so likely no lungs, liver, and the rest. The inside of a founder is likely in a gelatinous state, a homogenous mass. It's an imitation limited to the surface.

 

[Farscape One]

We only know Odo couldn't eat because it was messy. He was clearly not nearly as skilled as the other Changelings in imitating humanoids, so it is possible they can eat.

Though it probably just sits there until they let it out. (Which, when you think about it, is not really that different than solids. We let out our waste after we eat and drink.)

 

[Swedish Borg]

....

Though it probably just sits there until they let it out. (Which, when you think about it, is not really that different than solids. We let out our waste after we eat and drink.)

Possible, but since it's not digested, it likely doesn't smell as bad when it's excreted....

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Not sure if it's at the molecular level, after all, they can't reproduce tastebuds, the sense of smell and they have no stomach and probably no internal organs at all. Odo once said that he didn't have a heart, so likely no lungs, liver, and the rest. The inside of a founder is likely in a gelatinous state, a homogenous mass. It's an imitation limited to the surface.

We know that Starfleet could not use tricorders, which can detect material molecularly and genetically, could not detect the Founders.Tricorders could also identify internal organs, but could not detect the Founders. We also know that the Founders had abilities of imitate far superior to Odo's by his own admission. The only methods to detect them were to force them out of their current state. What Odo couldn't do can't really be a measure of the Founder's abilities.

 

[Swedish Borg]

We know that Starfleet could not use tricorders, which can detect material molecularly and genetically, could not detect the Founders.Tricorders could also identify internal organs, but could not detect the Founders. We also know that the Founders had abilities of imitate far superior to Odo's by his own admission. The only methods to detect them were to force them out of their current state. What Odo couldn't do can't really be a measure of the Founder's abilities.

I think as often they are a little fuzzy on it. It's like the Jems sometimes they eat, sometimes they don't. Or the Kosst Amojan that appeared and died three times!!! The conclusions you will draw depend essentially on which episodes you'll choose to take into account and which you'll choose to ignore.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I think as often they are a little fuzzy on it. It's like the Jems sometimes they eat, sometimes they don't. Or the Kosst Amojan that appeared and died three times!!! The conclusions you will draw depend essentially on which episodes you'll choose to take into account and which you'll choose to ignore.

No. As much as there are times that premises are changed, revised, or not explained in a consistent manner, the fact that a mature Founder cannot be detected (its imitated form cannot be distinguished from the natural being) by scanning was established early and was a consistent part of the series by necessity. It was the primary threat that the Founders wielded against the Federation. The first time (IIANM) is in Heart of Stone, followed by The Adversary, Homefront, Apocalypse Rising, The Ship, and Chimera.