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Movie showdown: TWOK v. TUC

RookieBatman said:
Basil said:
Yes, why reward laziness. There's a whole wealth of great film out there just waiting to be discovered. I found it. You can, too. If not, that's fine, too.

Hey, Basil, for those of us who do like watching the classics (my favored range is the 40's to the 60's), why don't you recommend some movies for us? I just watched The Seven Samurai the other day, and it really was an "education," like you said. I'd certainly like to gain a similar experience from some of the better movies of the 60's, but I certainly don't have time to watch every movie made between 1960 and 1969. So, if you're an aficionado of fine movies, why not just share with other aficionados what some of your favorites are?
Absolutely!

For this reply, I'll stick to the 1960s. Start with, in no particular order (and by no means exhaustive):

Topkapi
The Manchurian Candidate
Colossus: The Forbin Project
The Planet of the Apes
Charade
The Guns of Navarone
Where Eagles Dare
Breakfast at Tiffany's
2001: A Space Odyssey
The IPCRESS File
Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf
Zulu
Goldfinger
How the West was Won
The Graduate
Bullitt
Blow Up

Agreed on The Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven.
 
cardinal biggles said:
^After seeing The Magnificent Seven, I gained a better appreciation for what Michael Piller was trying to do with Insurrection.

Didn't make it a better movie, but it does make you regret that the film didn't turn out better.
Wipe the slate clean and go with a different premise. Piller stubbornly clung onto something that was an extremely hard sell to the audience: "Give up the fountain of youth?" (Yeah, right...)

People go to wars and displace people over much trivial things than that.
 
Agreed, but an eyepatch that's riveted into your head surely bespeaks an oversized pair of cojones. Khan get the bonus points since his wasn't a prosthetic.
 
A beaker full of death said:
Agreed, but an eyepatch that's riveted into your head surely bespeaks an oversized pair of cojones. Khan get the bonus points since his wasn't a prosthetic.
The mullet surely docks him a million or so points.
 
Great list Basil. I'd throw in:

Bonnie & Clyde (How could you include The Graduate and not this?)
The Time Machine
A Fistful of Dollars
For a Few Dollars More
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

The last three are part of Clint Eastwood's "The Man With No Name" series.

If you want to see vintage counter-culture, I'd recommend Easy Rider and Alice's Restaurant.
 
TWOK by a country mile.

Count me as one of the minority who was seriously underwhelmed by TUC. It's not a bad movie by any means, just highly overrated in my opinion. It may be sacrilege, but I don't think it's any better than Generations (which I am fond of, warts and all).

My problems with TUC include a lot that has already been mentioned, including the overuse of Shakespeare quotes. In fact, I find a huge amount of the dialogue to be heavy handed and clunky, like it was from fan fiction. The delivery of that dialogue is not much better. But most of all it's the middle of the film that I have a problem with. I like the first act, up to and including the assassination. It has a very dark and moody feel. Then, for me, the film goes off the rails.

First of all, having Spock play "Sherlock Holmes on the Enterprise" just brought the film to a halt. All that nonsense about the search for gravity boots felt extremely contrived, with heavy handed plotting and silly twists that add nothing to the film. It's like they made the movie, found out it was 20 minutes short, and went back and inserted a whole superfluous story arc just to pad things out.

Meanwhile, Kirk and McCoy's storyline on the prison planet is better, but not much. There was some good character moments between the two, but also more silliness (in particular the fight between the two Kirks was painful, and some of Shatner's worst acting). As others have mentioned, the tracking device plot twist was just silly. You are telling me Kirk is arrested, transported to the Klingon homeworld, put on trial, convicted, transported to a prison planet, and he never changes out of his uniform? And nobody thinks to search him in all that time?

Things pick up at the end of the film, but ultimately TUC just has too many silly contrivances and too much heavy-handed dialogue for me to really love it.
 
cardinal biggles said:
How was the translation in the courtroom stolen from Red October? Just because they start out in Klingon and then slip into English?

I believe Kirk and McCoy have a translator, that device they are holding to their ears. There is even a brief clip of someone translating. I assume they just go into English to keep the audience from listening to 15 minutes of Klingonese.

ialfan said:
A few months ago I would have voted for TUC until I realized the huge plot hole in TUC where the movie starts with excelsior charting gaseous anomilies and at the end Enterprise-A has the equipment.

How is that a plot hole? There's plenty of gas in space. It's not like there's some plot dependent deleted scene where the Enterprise sneakily beams it off Excelsior.
 
TWOK. Period.

Meyer used TUC to break down as much of Trek's mystique as possible.

In TWOK, Meyer just accepted the Trek elements and went ahead and told a great story.

--Ted
 
Lord Garth said:
Great list Basil. I'd throw in:

Bonnie & Clyde (How could you include The Graduate and not this?)
The Time Machine
A Fistful of Dollars
For a Few Dollars More
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

The last three are part of Clint Eastwood's "The Man With No Name" series.

If you want to see vintage counter-culture, I'd recommend Easy Rider and Alice's Restaurant.
Excellent additions, Lord Garth[b/].
 
SmoothieX said:
cardinal biggles said:
How was the translation in the courtroom stolen from Red October? Just because they start out in Klingon and then slip into English?
I believe Kirk and McCoy have a translator, that device they are holding to their ears. There is even a brief clip of someone translating. I assume they just go into English to keep the audience from listening to 15 minutes of Klingonese.
That's hardly a dramatic device invented by Red October, though. In Judgment at Nuremberg, the first minute or so of the German defense attorney's opening statement is in German, with the voice of the American translator heard over top of it, before the camera cranes over the glass pane that the translator is looking through, at which point the attorney (and all other German characters) speak English, though they continue to wear headphones throughout to maintain the illusion that they're listening to the translation.

The 1983 miniseries The Winds of War has numerous scenes where German-speaking characters (usually Hitler) switch from German to English for the benefit of the audience so they aren't reading subtitles the whole time.

In other words, it's not anything new, and it's not something that makes for a strong connection between TUC and Red October (compared to, say, the cinematography or the set decoration).
 
TUC is slightly better TWOK for me.

TWOK's climax battle was too static and lacked a sense of urgency. The resolution of that battle was also rather arbitrary considering both sides didn't have the tactical information to actually fight a proper battle. Suffice to say I don't buy the Enterprise magically ending up behind Reliant just because Kirk ordered Sulu to move up and down a bit especially considering up and down are meaningless concepts in space. I also don't buy Spock's comment on Khan's lack of 3d spatical tactical awareness at all.

Genesis's detonation which led to Spock's death was a bit contrived considering the Reliant was completely disabled. The Enterprise had the chance of destroying the device unless the writers are going with the idea that the bomb must explode in the process of being destroyed which is a fictional concept that I hate.

TUC's final battle was more well-paced and the tension was also higher since the Enterprise couldn't fire back at first. I actually felt that Chang is a better antagonist than Khan. Part of it is his appearance being more menacing than the tribal leader look that Khan had in TWOK. Another part being that Chang seemed to relish in the slow destruction of the Enterprise.
 
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