Most disturbing scene in star trek?

[Maxillius]

The one I'm thinking of is Captain Sandhurst in Gibraltar's sickbay with a reprogrammed EMH vs. the NuMaquis. I forget which Gibraltar story that was, but I think the Bluefin was in it too.

The other scene is in the Dark Territory story, "The Crucible". Glover and Nya. Nuff said. (don't wanna give it all away)

 

[Sector 7]

I do not want to get us farther off topic, but... I always loved horror flicks, since I am a night owl. The ONLY movie to ever give me nightmares was The Silence of the Lambs. That movie really got into my head, I guess. For several days I could not get to sleep without help, then I would have awful, creepy nightmares. I bought the movie on VHS, could not bring myself to watch it again, finally gave it away.

 

[Captain Roberts]

Picard's torure. Still tough to watch.

 

[Anji]

Spock mind-raping Valeris in The Undiscovered Country. A very unfortunate scene and a poor dramatic decision, IMHO.

Agreed. I can't believe they didn't think they were going to scare the women in the audience when they added that scene.

 

[Shatnertage]

For me, it's the beating and torture of the unnamed blue humanoid in In a Mirror Darkly II.

It's not necessarily that it's a graphic scene, but the way he just breaks down and cries is way more realistic than the usual stoic macho defiance that it seemed more real. I felt really bad for the guy.

 

[DonIago]

^^So if it was a poor decision, what would have been a better way of handling it?

Kirk and Co. needed the info, Valeris had it but was refusing to reveal it. Our Heroes were short on time and it was quite literally a matter of life and death.

In the novelization at least I think it's implied that in the meld Valeris consents to give Spock the information, but I grant that's not really how it's portrayed.

It may be disturbing, but I'm not sure what better option Our Heroes had.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The Enemy Within-- Evil Twin Kirk's attempted rape of Yeoman Rand.

It looked pretty disturbing for 60's TV show, and I remember seeing a more graphic (not explicit) picture of the scene in a magazine.

There was always some weird chemistry between them to begin with which kind of made it more disturbing.

 

[T'Girl]

Spock mind-raping Valeris

It was a piece in the evolution of the Vulcans as "not very nice people" that Star Trek did over time.

Also, that rape and torture are somehow okay under certain circumstances (need info, limited time) which would seem to go against Star Trek's principles and credo. A nasty step in the "darkening" of Star Trek. A direction that, unfortunately, some fans seem to desire.

 

[1001001]

^^So if it was a poor decision, what would have been a better way of handling it?

Kirk and Co. needed the info, Valeris had it but was refusing to reveal it. Our Heroes were short on time and it was quite literally a matter of life and death.

In the novelization at least I think it's implied that in the meld Valeris consents to give Spock the information, but I grant that's not really how it's portrayed.

It may be disturbing, but I'm not sure what better option Our Heroes had.

Think about the hue and cry that went up when Janeway threatened to feed Lessing to the aliens in Equinox. I remember a lot of talk on the board about how that was torture and how unacceptable it was. That scene was used many times in the Voyager Forum as an example of Janeway's unfitness (is that a word? Unfitness? ) for command.

That was a life and death situation too. And she didn't physically harm him, she tried to scare him. Spock actually harmed Valeris (I'm assuming those weren't screams of pleasure).

I think it was out of character for Spock, and cast him in a bad light.

Dramatically, I don't know how it would have been better handled...a scene where Spock appeals to her logic in a memorable speech, maybe?

It's just my opinion, and no big deal I guess, but I thought it tarnished his character a little bit to be brought to that, when I could imagine Spock in any other situation arguing against that kind of behavior with withering logic and rationality.

 

[DonIago]

I don't see where there's any evidence that Janeway wouldn't have let Lessing die if it had come down to it, so for me the "it was just a bluff" theory doesn't work.

Which is a big difference between the Lessing scene and the Valeris scene. Nobody was planning to kill Valeris, or even put her in a situation where she could have been killed accidentally.

Anyway, while Voyager may have been in a dire situation, I would argue the stakes were significantly higher in TUC...and apparently while the Enterprise crew agreed with Kirk's(?) plan, it was quite clear that the Voyager crew did -not- agree with Janeway's plan. These people are the experts, so we can assume that if a better plan had existed and they'd thought of it they would have objected to the forced meld.

I really don't think Valeris would haver been swayed by a speech, especially since Spock and Valeris had already had a conversation earlier in the movie, before she committed to a course of action.

It's weird to me to hear people say that something a character does is OOC, given that the fact that they do it would seem to establish that it is in-character. Unexpected and unfavorable perhaps, but OOC seems a bit like we know better than the writers or something.

Anyway, in the absence of the suggestion of a better plan and the lack of dissent amongst the senior staff I remain resigned to the notion that this was their best option.

 

[Greg Cox]

Spock mind-raping Valeris

It was a piece in the evolution of the Vulcans as "not very nice people" that Star Trek did over time.

The Vulcans were never portrayed as very nice people. Look at TOS. Sarek doesn't speak to his son for umpteen years because of a family tiff, and is briefly suspected of murder. T'Pring is a schemer who is perfectly willing to get Kirk or Spock killed to get what she wants. Even T'Pau is pretty icy and disdainful of Spock's human roots. She also seems to value preserving Vulcan traditions over the risk to Kirk. ("Amok Time" is great, but it always bothers me that nobody bothers to explain to Kirk that the battle is to the death until after he accepts the challenge. Good going there, T'Pau!)

And, of course, it was D. C. Fontana, the authority on all things Vulcan, that established that Spock was bullied as a child by the other Vulcan children.

I'm not sure where people got the idea that Vulcans started out as paragons and that it was the later shows that sullied their reputation . . . .

 

[1001001]

I don't see where there's any evidence that Janeway wouldn't have let Lessing die if it had come down to it, so for me the "it was just a bluff" theory doesn't work.

We'll never know. We do know, for a fact, that Spock physically tortured Valeris.

Which is a big difference between the Lessing scene and the Valeris scene. Nobody was planning to kill Valeris, or even put her in a situation where she could have been killed accidentally.

I don't think we know either one for sure. Can Vulcans be permanently injured or even die from a forced mind meld?

Anyway, while Voyager may have been in a dire situation, I would argue the stakes were significantly higher in TUC...and apparently while the Enterprise crew agreed with Kirk's(?) plan, it was quite clear that the Voyager crew did -not- agree with Janeway's plan. These people are the experts, so we can assume that if a better plan had existed and they'd thought of it they would have objected to the forced meld.

I would argue that shows how poorly written that scene was. Would the Enterprise crew, Starfleet Officers, sit back and watch someone be tortured right in front of them? If anything, the fact that Chakotay objected to what Janeway was doing shows how out of character the whole TUC scene was. Hell, even Chuckles knew better than that!

I really don't think Valeris would haver been swayed by a speech, especially since Spock and Valeris had already had a conversation earlier in the movie, before she committed to a course of action.

Again, we'll never know. As for the previous conversation in Spock's quarters, it was short and vague and not clear that they were even talking about the same thing.

It's weird to me to hear people say that something a character does is OOC, given that the fact that they do it would seem to establish that it is in-character. Unexpected and unfavorable perhaps, but OOC seems a bit like we know better than the writers or something.

Well, having watched the character in hundreds of situations over many decades, sure I think we know him pretty well. Spock torturing a fellow Starfleet officer for information, does that seem right to you?

Anyway, in the absence of the suggestion of a better plan and the lack of dissent amongst the senior staff I remain resigned to the notion that this was their best option.

Perhaps. If they would have at least shown the consequences of the act, or had someone discussed it privately with Spock, it at least would have been acknowledged. As it stands, Spock tortured her and no one seemed to notice or care. That didn't sit well with me.

But I don't stay up at night worrying about it or anything.



Just a different point of view.

 

[1001001]

I'm not sure where people got the idea that Vulcans started out as paragons and that it was the later shows that sullied their reputation . . . .

Exactly! I'm glad someone said that. During Enterprise's run, all the complaining about "revisionist history" struck me as hollow. The Vulcans have always been pompous, condescending jerks.

 

[DonIago]

Maybe in the Extended Edition there's a Board of Inquiry scene where Spock is caned for performing a non-consensual mind meld?

 

[Greg Cox]

I'm not sure where people got the idea that Vulcans started out as paragons and that it was the later shows that sullied their reputation . . . .

Exactly! I'm glad someone said that. During Enterprise's run, all the complaining about "revisionist history" struck me as hollow.

I had the same reaction. Just because Spock is admirable doesn't mean his entire species is. The Vulcans on ENTERPRISE didn't seem any more flawed or duplicitous than, say, the ones in "Amok Time" or "Journey to Babel"

 

[DonIago]

Hell, Spock certainly had his own moments of not being so admirable. He hijacks the ship in The Menagerie, doesn't trust his friends enough to tell them the truth in Amok Time, and Sarek isn't the only stubborn ass in Babel. Oh, and he's also arrogantly presumptuous in TUC.

Being logical isn't the same thing as being good or nice or moral.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Spock mind-raping Valeris

It was a piece in the evolution of the Vulcans as "not very nice people" that Star Trek did over time.

The Vulcans were never portrayed as very nice people. Look at TOS. Sarek doesn't speak to his son for umpteen years because of a family tiff, and is briefly suspected of murder. T'Pring is a schemer who is perfectly willing to get Kirk or Spock killed to get what she wants. Even T'Pau is pretty icy and disdainful of Spock's human roots. She also seems to value preserving Vulcan traditions over the risk to Kirk. ("Amok Time" is great, but it always bothers me that nobody bothers to explain to Kirk that the battle is to the death until after he accepts the challenge. Good going there, T'Pau!)

And, of course, it was D. C. Fontana, the authority on all things Vulcan, that established that Spock was bullied as a child by the other Vulcan children.

I'm not sure where people got the idea that Vulcans started out as paragons and that it was the later shows that sullied their reputation . . . .

This is exactly what I was going to say. Many Vulcans came off as extremely arrogant and intolerant.

I've thought that it would have been possible to show Vulcans in a more tolerant light, and I've actually seen some fanfic authors pull it off quite nicely. But the writers of the show didn't seem to do it, except as Spock began to "mellow" in his later years.

And I kind of think that the last few appearances we see of Spock, especially in Trek XI, make him really seem like a blend of Vulcan and human rather than living according to wholly Vulcan ideals, at least when you consider the other Vulcans we saw.

It could have been handled differently, to where other Vulcans could have shown in a more balanced light. Even the treatment of the Cardassians--a "villain race"--proves it could be done.

 

[Iamnotspock]

And I kind of think that the last few appearances we see of Spock, especially in Trek XI, make him really seem like a blend of Vulcan and human rather than living according to wholly Vulcan ideals, at least when you consider the other Vulcans we saw.

Indeed. After TMP, he seems to be much more at peace with himself and his hybrid nature than previously. It seems natural that by the time we get to XI he is about 50/50 Vulcan/Human.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

And I kind of think that the last few appearances we see of Spock, especially in Trek XI, make him really seem like a blend of Vulcan and human rather than living according to wholly Vulcan ideals, at least when you consider the other Vulcans we saw.

Indeed. After TMP, he seems to be much more at peace with himself and his hybrid nature than previously. It seems natural that by the time we get to XI he is about 50/50 Vulcan/Human.

Indeed. Even in his adherence to logic, there seemed to be a lot of warmth to the character in Trek XI, in the way he acted. I am very much wondering if Abrams' Spock is going to gain that same sort of peace earlier in life. I have a feeling that version would not attempt Kolinahr, maybe even see his doing so as an insult to his mother, and leave that tradition to other Vulcans.

 

[Anwar]

TMP was the major turning point for Spock, he finally met a being of pure logic devoid of emotions and realized what a terrible existence it really was. It made him realize "You know, these feelings that I've been embarrassed by and tried to expel actually have made my life much fulfilling than if I really was totally logical. I should probably finally begin to appreciate that I can experience the merits of both species than deny one over the other."

It kind of helps that they also dropped most of the human/vulcan racist talk between him and McCoy.