In the case if STID I think it's less of an issue they brought Kahn back rather that there tried ti recapture some elements of TWOK i.e the reactor scene. Why not just reimagine "Space Seed". Or that the Enterprise is dispatched to discover why say the USS Reliant has failed to report in following it's last communication reporting that had come across an old DY-100 ship the SS Botany Bay.
most disappointing Trek movie?
- Thread starter Khan 2.0
- Start date
I think the reactor scene colors it far more than it needs to. The reactor scene is Kirk embracing death, something he actively denies through ST 09 and ID. It is poignant and powerful in his arc of becoming of starship captain. It's sad that it gets overshawdowed because of the lines read.
I think the reactor scene was a case of Bob Orci trying to get too cute. "Oooh, let's redo the Spock death scene from TWOK.....but in reverse, wouldn't that be so Hitchcock-like of us". That totally ruined any poignancy moment for me. The whole time instead of focusing on Kirk's moment of mortality I was focusing on 'they didn't just seriously do that.' Then Spock screaming Khan a la Shatner (never try to out-Shat the Shatner). My eyes rolled so far back with that one that I swear I could see out my optic nerve. I always thought even Abrams thought that was too much because that scene quickly cuts to the next (Spock screams--"KHAAAAAA--" cut away to Vengeance flying into the atmosphere). And then, of course, Kirk is miraculously brought back by magic blood (that's a whole other issue I have but I'll save that for another day). Now, I get that it'd be difficult to really kill off one of your main characters. But honestly, you want to shock people, do the unexpected for real.
I'd say I probably liked 80% of STID. The Khan reveal took it down a few notches, not the least because Cumberbatch reminded me absolutely nothing of Khan, zilch (kind of a shame because Cumberbatch did a great job as never before seen John Harrison). But the biggest drop for me, and most of that 20% reduction had to do with the blatant TWOK rip off near the end. Things were otherwise going pretty well up to that point.
I see all of your points. The only issue I have is the Khan yell. Cut that 2 seconds and the film is better for it.
As for the rest, well it's old hat at this point. Magic blood never bothered me because it's closer to blood based therapies in real life. Kirk not dying should come as no surprise and the shock value wouldn't have been worth it. Cumberbatch took a minute as Khan but he definitely had an air about him that was closer to Space Seed Khan. Colder, though.
Again, your points are well understood. I think ID is about 85% for me, with the largest drop simply using Khan and the Khan yell. The rest is fine. Mileage will vary.
CA:WS definitely seemed similar to STID.. maybe Marvel ripped off ST (then ST returned the favour by ripping off Guardians for STB)
I see no links between these two pairs of movies.
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I think even if they just changed up Kirk's 'death' a bit that could have made a big difference. I mean, drop the "Khan" yell of course, but had Kirk died in some other way and changed it up that it wasn't so blatantly a TWOK redo. I think that would have helped a lot, maybe even push it up to 90% for me. Orci was trying to get cute, he thought it would be cool to do a reverse like that, and then the Khan scream was the icing on the cake.
Platelet rich plasma therapy, blood doping, as well as several other medications that use human derived plasma as their base.
So, basically, remove all the TWOK stuff? I get that.
Spock was hurt he couldn't save his friend and grew some roaring rate of emotions. What was he supposed to yell after knowing the person who was responsible????
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God! ??? or an F-Bomb??? Space! ??? An epithet???
Give me a break.
Yelling out "Khan" was the appropriate thing to say after his friend just died.
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God! ??? or an F-Bomb??? Space! ??? An epithet???
Give me a break.
Yelling out "Khan" was the appropriate thing to say after his friend just died.
Spock was hurt he couldn't save his friend and grew some roaring rate of emotions. What was he supposed to yell after knowing the person who was responsible????
???
??
?
God! ??? or an F-Bomb??? Space! ??? An epithet???
Give me a break.
Yelling out "Khan" was the appropriate thing to say after his friend just died.
Come on, it was a blatant rip off of the Kirk scream on TWOK. The whole scene was, like I said, Orci was getting too cute there. He thought it would be 'cool' to do TWOK's ending in reverse. The whole movie before that was trying to do Khan in a new light. While I would have preferred a new villain, and not a retread of a previous villain (despite how good Khan was), I gave them kudos for at least spinning a different Khan story. Then they almost ruin it by deciding to 'redo' the ending to TWOK. I was 85 percent ok overall, and most of the 15 percent I didn't like was that whole sequence.
And you never try to out-Shat the Shat. You're just asking for trouble. There were many ways they could have handled that. Spock could have turned around and ripped a console off the wall in a rage, or just have a murderous look in his eyes before he beamed down to confront Khan. Or a million other things. They were clearly ripping off the Shatner's scream in TWOK, an iconic scream that we can all hear in our sleep it's so familiar. Frankly every time I hear it from Spock in STID I almost want to break out laughing, or I just simply roll my eyes when I'm feeling less jovial.
Thankfully the next sequence on Earth improved things with something original. And while I have some issues with the 'blood cure', that wasn't a huge deduction for me, maybe just a point or two.
Kirk doesn't yell "Khan" when his friend dies in TWOK.
I like STID for what it is...but the "Khan" yell by Spock is really off-putting for me...and the last 15-20 min of the film (basically everything from that moment onward) is horrific and undermines my good feelings for the rest of the movie. I don't mind the Kirk sacrifice at all...I actually think that's pretty powerful. But the yell was absolutely the wrong choice based on my personal reaction. It took a beautifully acted and executed scene and immediately made a joke out of it. Then we get dizzying, non-stop action and endless punching for the next 15 min to the extent that it physically makes my head hurt to watch it.
I've likened STID to a really great carnival ride. You have a delirious blast while you're on it...but you feel sick and unsettled once you are done. That's how this movie is for me. I enjoy turning my brain off and watching it, but when I'm done, I feel like I might have to vomit.
I've likened STID to a really great carnival ride. You have a delirious blast while you're on it...but you feel sick and unsettled once you are done. That's how this movie is for me. I enjoy turning my brain off and watching it, but when I'm done, I feel like I might have to vomit.
Wow. Quite an interesting mixture of feelings.
Had they taken out the "Khan" yell, I may have viewed the rest of that sequence a bit better. I agree Pine's performance is pretty poignant there. I just wish they had changed the circumstances around and hadn't ripped off of TWOK so much, and been so obvious about it. I was less bothered by the action sequences after that. Spock was pretty PO'd and the Abrams films were lots of action so I kind of expected that. Then the 'magic blood' happened and pulled me out again, though that's another argument that generates wide disagreement from Trekkies so what's new
.Kind of like how Kirk died in Generations. It's not his death that bothers me, I just wish it was a different sequence of events somehow. It was sort of anti-climatic (a different issue in that case).
I thought the Leonard Nimoy sequence was a bit of a waste as well. I mean, if you're going to go to the trouble to have Nimoy in the film, you think he'd have him do more than say "Khan is a dangerous individual" (basically). Um, duh. That kind of goes without saying. No 'point deductions' for that
, just more of a nuisance moment. Everything halted for a pointless cameo.
one thing about STID I felt at the time was it attempted to recapture that magical feel of TWOK in summer 1982 – the eventness, the sort of 80s SciFiness (that would be attempted again 2y later with TFA), the 'darkness' of the marketing, the extra violence and brutality, and there might be a big death but we're not saying (in fact we're not even saying who the villain is this time) and obviously it being a near remake or reimagination of TWOK (like the way Man of Steel was of Superman II that same summer) even down to getting Nimoy (who was really the secret weapon of Star Trek II) to pop up to say how awesome it was
Eh, this might be the nostalgia talking but the Nimoy cameo did a bit more for me after Beyond. It showed that Kelvin Spock had an ongoing relationship with Prime Spock and was available to his counterpart if need be. But, I also owe that to enjoying the Mirror Universe comics and seeing Spock vs. Spock made me OK with Spock working with Spock.
This is my feeling as well. And it works entirely thematically in the film.
I think that's where the "Khan" scream really just ruins it. I can see that point of view, and perhaps that whole scene was ruined for me by the "Khan" scream, which was a blatant rip on TWOK. If that scream never took place I might view it in a different light. I'm a huge Hitchcock film fan, so I don't mind little twists. But that scream, for me at least, turned what might have been a poignant, homage paying scene and perhaps colored my vision of that whole sequence of events into a TWOK rip off.
Plus, at that time I was a frequent poster on trekmovie.com. Bob Orci posted there a lot at that time and posted his undying admiration for TWOK (which is no secret anyway) so that probably colored my opinion somewhat too. Knowing how much he loved and adored TWOK automatically made me think they were copying TWOK, and some of the other things he would post there, made me believe he was getting a bit too cutesy.
It also didn't help how much they went out of their way to say the movie would not be about Khan, that the villain was in fact John Harrison, including on trekmovie.com. I get that they want to keep the big 'reveal' a secret, but they really went out of their way and it actually came across as deceitful. They probably should have handled that better.
Well, part of it was that I wanted to see the new crew all on their own without any prime character involvement. I'll admit. It was much how I felt when Star Trek: First Contact came out. We had the passing of the torch in Generations, and I was happy that FC was a TNG standalone film, their chance to stand on their own.
Star Trek (2009) was the passing of the torch, and I wanted STID to be the new crew as a standalone.
Now granted, it was a minor scene. It's why I wouldn't knock the overall film down for it. More a nitpick. And it seemed somewhat ill placed. There was a lot going on as they were battling Khan, then all of a sudden everything stops for Spock to talk to Spock-prime for him to tell them Khan was a very dangerous individual. And it really didn't add anything. Obviously the events were much different so whatever Spock-prime could tell them would not really help. I mean, him dying when the Genesis device was set off probably would not have helped.
So it just seemed a pointless addition to the story. No disrespect to Leonard Nimoy, RIP. He will always be the Spock all other Spock's need to aspire to be. I loved his role in Star Trek (2009) and was glad he was in that. Just here I was left wondering what was the point. And I realize mine is probably a minority opinion. Probably most fans wouldn't care how long Nimoy was in the film and for what purpose. And I am one of the few that really doesn't need to see William Shatner as Kirk in a new film.
But again, a minor nitpick, and as many Trekkies, I love to nitpick
They admitted as much.
On this point I do completely agree which is why I would have preferred Harrison as Harrison. But, for what we got I still find enjoyment overall. But, nitpicking is still going to happen.
Understood and agreed. I think a lot of STID is saved for me by the passion and effectiveness of some of the performances. To this day, I think it is Chris Pine's best work, and I love him in both the death scene and in Pike's death scene. But, the "Khan" scream is a low-point for me. Like...really bad. So I can't fault you at all for saying it may color your view of other things that happen in the film.
Agreed. I think there was too much "pressure" or "desire" to make the second film the Kelvinverse's "Dark Knight," so the formula of bringing back an iconic vilian was stuck in their minds. I think this...combined with their love for all things TWOK led to some storytelling decisions that could have been handled very differently.
I used to post there too. It got way too negative though.
This always confused me. I don't know why it needed to be a surprise or twist. It's not like Khan was a "secret" in TWOK. I think the plot could have been just as effective (if not more so) if they had either
1. Not kept "Khan" as a secret, and just played it out from the beginning
or
2. Made the guy actually just "Harrison" and not "Khan"
Either way, it would have worked just as well.