I don't see the remake mashup beyond surface level analysis. But, if we insist upon TWOK as the benchmark then all we will get is TWOK rehashes.
most disappointing Trek movie?
- Thread starter Khan 2.0
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TMP is a rehash of a TOS episode
TWOK has some old seafaring novel material in it, but it's not a rehash of anything, apart from a sequel to a specific TOS episode
TSFS: direct sequel to TWOK and not a rehash of anything, unless you count the replays of material from the previous movie.
TVH: Not a rehash, but has that "Misunderstood all powerful alien probe" trope from Nomad, TMP etc.
TUD: Not a rehash of anything. Some Shakespearian elements thrown in. The Bard can't sue.
GEN isn't a rehash of anything.
FC has a revenge element. And some Melville lines. That's all it has in common with TWOK
INS isn't a rehash of anything in particular.
NEM doesn't exist. It's a group hallucination. Wake up! What is NEM. why did I just type that? Moving on..
09 has some Khan elements in it, but is its own story. Not a rehash of TWOK.
STID is the rehash of TWOK, albeit in a "See what I did, I used other people's work and remixed it. I'm an artist" kind of Abrams way, which is what he does.
BEY: not a rehash. More like a new TOS episode.
TWOK has some old seafaring novel material in it, but it's not a rehash of anything, apart from a sequel to a specific TOS episode
TSFS: direct sequel to TWOK and not a rehash of anything, unless you count the replays of material from the previous movie.
TVH: Not a rehash, but has that "Misunderstood all powerful alien probe" trope from Nomad, TMP etc.
TUD: Not a rehash of anything. Some Shakespearian elements thrown in. The Bard can't sue.
GEN isn't a rehash of anything.
FC has a revenge element. And some Melville lines. That's all it has in common with TWOK
INS isn't a rehash of anything in particular.
NEM doesn't exist. It's a group hallucination. Wake up! What is NEM. why did I just type that? Moving on..
09 has some Khan elements in it, but is its own story. Not a rehash of TWOK.
STID is the rehash of TWOK, albeit in a "See what I did, I used other people's work and remixed it. I'm an artist" kind of Abrams way, which is what he does.
BEY: not a rehash. More like a new TOS episode.
Other than the reactor scene and use of Khan I just don't see the rehash. The elements and placement of the characters through out are much different thematically, with Kirk continuing on his journey already set in 09.
It's a retelling but arguably the elements are there.
Khan wants revenge, but this time not against Kirk, but against Admiral Marcus who essentially enslaved him. This time you can kind of see his point. In TWOK the potentially dangerous weapon is not Genesis but Khan himself (and I suppose his superblood, and maybe the Vengeance). There's the element of an an officer dying to save his ship, but it's Kirk instead of Spock. We even get the Khan scream, though it's not.. as.. good. Oh yeah, and Carol Marcus, albeit British Carol Marcus, who is the scientist child of an Admiral, so we don't need David. Well, maybe there will be a David way down the line, who knows.
Which is why I find rehash to be a stretch. The elements are there but not even in the same quantity, much less thematically the same.
Ok, but even as a callback it is lacking because I'm not thinking about Space Seed, or TWOK or whatnot. If that's the point then it fails soundly for me.
Take any character regardless of traits and motivation and give it a familiar name and fans are supposed to squee?
Passionate uberNapoleon is now a phlegmatic loyal leader, but still somehow " Khan."
But make it a secret and don't promote it so fans will pack the theaters. Then recreate scenes from the best movie with different characters yelling iconic yells.
Man, some weird decisions with that flick.
Passionate uberNapoleon is now a phlegmatic loyal leader, but still somehow " Khan."
But make it a secret and don't promote it so fans will pack the theaters. Then recreate scenes from the best movie with different characters yelling iconic yells.
Man, some weird decisions with that flick.
Um, yeah. Have you seen Hollywood lately?
But, yeah, I like Khan in ID. And in Space Seed. He scared me to death in TWOK so I liked him less.
She wasn't his wife.
Isn't that why he was an awesome villain...?
No. Fear doesn't make a good villain all by itself. Understanding of them, what motivates them, makes them powerful, why they are to be feared, makes an awesome villain. Being afraid of a character just makes them a villain.
TWOK may be a well done film but I do not revisit it because of Khan. It's not enjoyable.
I like STID. But one can't help but wonder what we could have got instead if Abrams wasn't obsessed with redoing what had been done. People don't like the word rehash?OK. But I think almost anyone will agreee many elements were reused from the past in making it. Use whatever word you like. Homage perhaps?
I get that the point of the Kelvin verse was to reintroduce TOS to a new audience. They'd already had their Khan fun with putting a creature into Pike's body to control his mind.
I don't even mind the superblood thing. Khan had been given a lab to play with in this version of the future, and he might have been augmenting himself secretly. By the time we see him, the Khan of STID is far more aware of the universe around him than the recently awoken one in Space Seed. He had catching up to do and did so. Augments were into self improvement. Prime Khan never really had a chance to adapt to life in the 23rd century or get much research done before he was marooned. Even at that he was still able to survive the destruction of a biosphere, figure out how to run a modern Starship very quickly and probably would have been fabricating Genesis torpedoes out by the hundreds once he'd had a base to operate from.
I get that the point of the Kelvin verse was to reintroduce TOS to a new audience. They'd already had their Khan fun with putting a creature into Pike's body to control his mind.
I don't even mind the superblood thing. Khan had been given a lab to play with in this version of the future, and he might have been augmenting himself secretly. By the time we see him, the Khan of STID is far more aware of the universe around him than the recently awoken one in Space Seed. He had catching up to do and did so. Augments were into self improvement. Prime Khan never really had a chance to adapt to life in the 23rd century or get much research done before he was marooned. Even at that he was still able to survive the destruction of a biosphere, figure out how to run a modern Starship very quickly and probably would have been fabricating Genesis torpedoes out by the hundreds once he'd had a base to operate from.
Khan is treated as the greatest Trek villain of all time by the fans. It is routinely demonstrated in fan polls and magazine articles again and again. So, who is obsessed? Also, it wasn't just Abrams. Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelöf all debated on Khan in the writing process.
Yes, they could have done anything. But, they go where the audience interest lies.
Overall, I think Khan in ID was good enough for the story told. I certainly don't walk away with a rehash feeling. Mileage will vary.
But, he is a villain, a bad guy. Star Trek should not be about the bad guys.
#devilsadvocate.
They made four seasons about Jonathan Archer, so...
Got me there.
I'd say FC is the opposite of TWOK, if anything.
In TWOK, the antagonist wants revenge and wears it on his sleeve. In FC, it's the protagonist who wants revenge and does everything he can to deny it.
In TWOK, the Captain isn't the Captain anymore and has to return to the role. In FC, the Captain was given a new ship on a Silver Platter.
In TWOK, Khan escaped from exile on Ceti Alpha V. He couldn't go anywhere until the Reliant showed up. In FC, the Borg are basically the main power in the Delta Quadrant. They aren't in exile at all and can attack the Federation any time they want. They just waited six years. The Borg were in no rush. But once Khan had the means, he immediately went for Kirk.
Remix is a better word. STID Took elements and jiggled them around. Very different story.
I was disappointed when Khan turned "bad" at least plot-wise. Would have been a better story (and remix) to really join w Kirk fully against evil admiral. Truthfully I can't remember how things go south, but I remember him and Spock duking it out on top of a tram, their fists so loud I had to cover my ears.
I was disappointed as it unfolded, just as when Kirk blows up Nero instead of the writers doing a Trekkian no-kill-I twist I thought for sure was coming. Nope.
Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end . . .
I was disappointed when Khan turned "bad" at least plot-wise. Would have been a better story (and remix) to really join w Kirk fully against evil admiral. Truthfully I can't remember how things go south, but I remember him and Spock duking it out on top of a tram, their fists so loud I had to cover my ears.
I was disappointed as it unfolded, just as when Kirk blows up Nero instead of the writers doing a Trekkian no-kill-I twist I thought for sure was coming. Nope.
Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end . . .