moriarty

[Longinus]

Now, how consciousness is created is one of the biggest mysteries of our time (perhaps the biggest) and no one really has an answer for that. However, it appears that complex nervous systems create it (the best guess is that it is related to reentry activity in thalomo-cortical complex (or just thalamo-pallial in non-mammalian vertebrae.)) Personally. I do not believe that it is possible to create a truly conscious AI, unless that AI is built to physically mimic the structures of animal brain. This is what Data appears to be, so I have no problem believing that he is conscious, however, the consciousness of holograms is much harder to accept. Then again, in Star Trek things that should be impossible by our modern understanding of science happen constantly, and the writers certainly intended us to believe that certain holograms are conscious. However, it is a continuity error certainly; if the small computer in Moriarty box is sufficient to maintain two human level consciousness, then what is so special about the positronic brain?

 

[stardream]

I am one of the few who was confused over the tears spilled over the Doctor's Daughter in 'Real Life'. I was over in the corner going "You know she's just a computer program...and so is he? He can reprogram that scenario anyway he wants?" I was more interested in the astral eddy.

 

[Guy Gardener]

And anyone else can play the same program, casting themselves in the father knows best role, with a snuggling wife and "his" kids being little shits.

 

[Triskelion]

Now, how consciousness is created is one of the biggest mysteries of our time (perhaps the biggest) and no one really has an answer for that. However, it appears that complex nervous systems create it (the best guess is that it is related to reentry activity in thalomo-cortical complex (or just thalamo-pallial in non-mammalian vertebrae.)) Personally. I do not believe that it is possible to create a truly conscious AI, unless that AI is built to physically mimic the structures of animal brain. This is what Data appears to be, so I have no problem believing that he is conscious, however, the consciousness of holograms is much harder to accept. Then again, in Star Trek things that should be impossible by our modern understanding of science happen constantly, and the writers certainly intended us to believe that certain holograms are conscious. However, it is a continuity error certainly; if the small computer in Moriarty box is sufficient to maintain two human level consciousness, then what is so special about the positronic brain?

Or how in the world can the ship's computer even create an adversary "capable of defeating Data"? Let alone an EMH or holo-program within that computer accomplishing that feat; or as you so rightly point out, the "Moriarty Box" even attempting it. Of course, it's only a show. And I would be willing to allow for a Soongian Android possessing the necessary complexity to create an emergent property of, let's just say, self-awareness - but why bother when you can just program behaviors that demonstrate precisely the same impression to observers - for a lot less computing power and philosophical stress?


Conversely, if intelligence and individual self-awareness were so easily created as in the show - it does seem that any moral intelligent species would have an ethical obligation to generate them to the fullest extent, and set them out and on their way.

As a fan, these are some of my favorite characters; but they are given entirely too much credit in the service of a TV act between commercial breaks. In my mind, giving the EMH author's rights was entirely over-complicating things, when it could have instead automatically been subsumed by Dr Lewis Zimmerman's prevailing copyright. This would have made Photons Be Free a derivative work, and so already a protected work.

 

[Tracy Trek]

I am one of the few who was confused over the tears spilled over the Doctor's Daughter in 'Real Life'. I was over in the corner going "You know she's just a computer program...and so is he? He can reprogram that scenario anyway he wants?" I was more interested in the astral eddy.

What I got from the episode is the EMH is that he chose not to reprogram it after Tom told him something to the effect of real people can't reprogram their lives when something like that happens. And Doc wanted to experience what it was like to be a real person.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Data is self contained and almost 50 years old in Encounter at Farpoint.

His brain is smaller than a volley ball.

The EMH is (potentially, if necessary) the Entire Ship.

If the Doctor thinks too hard, lights Voyagerwide dim.

His brain is the Ships massive Library Computer networked to every other computer on the ship.

 

[stardream]

What I got from the episode is the EMH is that he chose not to reprogram it after Tom told him something to the effect of real people can't reprogram their lives when something like that happens. And Doc wanted to experience what it was like to be a real person.

I got that but I just didn't think it was particularity all that sad. I know...it was 'real' to him but I just didn't think it was all that sad.

 

[Longinus]

Guy, how would you explain the Moriarty box then? It only has a tiny computer.

Besides, consciousness is not so much about processing power than it is about structure. A field mouse is (probably) sentient while Tianhe-2 (world's most powerful supercomputer) is (probably) not.

 

[JesterFace]

If "real people" experience pain and suffering and EMH and other "things" like him could avoid it, why not...

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Moriarty probably eventually realized he'd been tricked but there's nothing he can do about it. He would have eventually noticed that everything he experienced is within the parameters of what is expected, and there are statistically too few surprises and new developments for it to be reality.

For the question about whether Data is really sentient, my answer is "In the show, he is." If I can suspend disbelief that we can break the light barrier I can suspend disbelief that a machine can be conscious.

 

[Terok Nor]

I never had an issue believing Data was conscious. I'm not sure why but maybe the writers handled Data better so it was easier to accept. Not saying it was in any way more valid for an android to be a person than it is for a hologram.I absolutely never took any notice of holograms being sentient. Moriarty was a fluke that got out of control but he was no more a lifeform than those monsters Worf fought on the holodeck.

The Doctor was in a very unique situation in which he was only the only one on board with the medical knowledge and ability to treat all the ailments of the crew. He managed to become autonymous and was given free reign to develop on his own. But this would never have happened if Voyager had not been stranded in the Delta Quadrant and the crew came to see him as an individual. Still, if we accept him a an individual then surely all EMH programs have the ability to become sentient. Where do you stop? Should all Holodecks and Holosuites start treating their holograms like people with rights? The Doctor is the exception to the rule and only because of exceptional circumstances but I still don't think he's a "real" person. Just a very advanced program.

 

[hux]

The problem with holographic sentience is that all you have to do to create it, is simply say the words... "computer, create a sentient life-form." History has show... it ain't that easy. Hence, I don't buy that they are sentient (including the doctor).

What I got from the episode is the EMH is that he chose not to reprogram it after Tom told him something to the effect of real people can't reprogram their lives when something like that happens. And Doc wanted to experience what it was like to be a real person.

The fact that B'Elanna initially programmed it so that his daughter would die horribly because she thought that the death of a child was a "normal" family experience, ought to have been the first sign that her metal health wasn't what it could be.

 

[T'Girl]

Ooopsie

 

[Longinus]

But was she born while Sulu was aboard the Enterprise, or possibly before?

Did you perhaps mean to post in this thread instead?

 

[stardream]

The problem with holographic sentience is that all you have to do to create it, is simply say the words... "computer, create a sentient life-form." History has show... it ain't that easy. Hence, I don't buy that they are sentient (including the doctor).

The fact that B'Elanna initially programmed it so that his daughter would die horribly because she thought that the death of a child was a "normal" family experience, ought to have been the first sign that her metal health wasn't what it could be.

Interesting that no one called her on that. No 'B'Elanna..what were you thinking!"

 

[DonIago]

I highly doubt that B'Elanna specifically programmed that event.

 

[hux]

According to the dialogue, B'Elanna merely programmed the family to follow a more random natural evolution of probabilities that would make events and behaviours more unpredictable.

But honestly, I find it hard to believe that under those circumstances, the computer would almost instantly throw a child's death at the player (nothing we've seen of the holodeck suggests it would ever be that stark). I see her guiding hand.

 

[Triskelion]

If Little Nellie hadn't bought it, then his holo-family would have had no reason to be reset by the next episode. We could have watched Nellie teach Naomi how to stop, drop and roll in case of Borg attack.

Here's another point: The Federation has no frontier colony worlds where a hospital may need a doctor or even a nurse or phlebotomist? They need the EMH M1 to mine dilithium? I guess non-currency economics aren't what they're cracked up to be if they can't even get people to do a bit of dirty work to power the vaunted interstellar civilization.

Are the M1's slaves needing to be free? They have no reason to be allowed to exceed their programming. Hence, no individuality - no self-awareness. No issue. They are not stranded in the Delta Quadrant. Get up and walk out if you want.

When the EMH had his dilemma in Latent Image, was there no triage protocol that put the choice on the crewman more essential to the entire crew and ship's mission? A mortal duty both Harry and Anhi Jetal had committed to voluntarily, BTW. It would have been reasonable to choose a bridge officer over the ship's Lemon Pledge Refiller, or whatever she did belowdecks. I can see the EMH regretting that choice aesthetically - but not taking the moral hit for it. But then, that episode made some good points - as when Seven discussed being part replicator with Janeway. Still, at best, all Seven did was put in the shadow of doubt regarding the EMH's individuality. She didn't prove it.

 

[In_Correct]

How is it even possible for holograms to mine dillithium? Do they have a planet wide holographic generator?

As for Moriarty or The Doctor being sentient I guess it is possible for them to eventually become sentient if the original programs are left on. The Doctor was almost always on. Moriarty should have never gained sentience be cause if I remember correctly, he was placed in Protected Memory and then turned off. There should be no way for Moriarty to have gained conciousness and became aware of the time.

I do think that Data and even The LCARS Super Computer are self aware.

As for Moriarty's fate, he could have been disposed of. I don't think Picard cared much for Moriarty. All he cared about was freeing the Enterprise and the trapped crew, even if it meant tricking Moriarty. It would not be the first time he did this. He sometimes does not care for life forms if they are a threat. He tricked Armus, The aliens from Allegiance, and Moriarty.

 

[JesterFace]

If, for exaple, Data and EMH know they exist, aren't they sentient? At least more than a goldfish..?

They're self aware, know their past and can plan their future, for me that says a sentient lifeform. Moriarty was like that too.