Monolithic cultures in Star Trek lit?

[SpaceLama]

You really might want to try the Rihannsu: The Bloodwing Voyages omnibus, then, SpaceLama. As I mentioned above, I'm still not 100 percent sure how I feel about it - parts I really liked, others...not so sure - but it was definitely a good read, and they (Diane Duane and Peter Morwood) did fill out Romulan culture a lot.

I've been reluctant, since the first book was written pre-TNG, and my favorite depictions of the Romulans, were the TNG era ones. I know there will probably be a lot that contradicts what is on screen - and the naming of Romulus and Remus was already altered in 'Vulcan's ....' I think - but I will read them at some point - perhaps after 'ENT: The Romulan War' is out.

 

[EmperorKalan]

Rather I mean, it could potentially flesh out alien cultures a lot more, to show what a 19th century Andorian crime fiction writer would pen. Or a Klingon martial arts romance.

or old Battlecruiser Vengeance novelizations

Or BV fan-films?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

One thing that might be interesting, could be if authors wrote fiction from the perspective of a Romulan or Klingon or Cardassian - and I don't mean something obvious and over used like an epic of Kahless.

Rather I mean, it could potentially flesh out alien cultures a lot more, to show what a 19th century Andorian crime fiction writer would pen. Or a Klingon martial arts romance. Or a Romulan horror novel.

By their nature, they would force the author to invent a lot of diverse aspects of alien culture - what would the 'old docks' look like in an Andorian town - what would a Romulan Lovecraft conjure up in the mines of Remus.

Ooooh...

I WANT THAT!!!!

I've often thought an anthology of various Trek aliens' works of fiction would be a nifty idea.

Agreed! Such a complex, layered look at alien cultures could really work. It would be tough to pull off, but it would certainly be worth it.

 

[JustKate]

You really might want to try the Rihannsu: The Bloodwing Voyages omnibus, then, SpaceLama. As I mentioned above, I'm still not 100 percent sure how I feel about it - parts I really liked, others...not so sure - but it was definitely a good read, and they (Diane Duane and Peter Morwood) did fill out Romulan culture a lot.

I've been reluctant, since the first book was written pre-TNG, and my favorite depictions of the Romulans, were the TNG era ones. I know there will probably be a lot that contradicts what is on screen - and the naming of Romulus and Remus was already altered in 'Vulcan's ....' I think - but I will read them at some point - perhaps after 'ENT: The Romulan War' is out.

Oh, believe me, I understand - I mean, they've been out for years and I just read them - which means I'd been "hesitating" for years. I was very reluctant to revisit the original characters - and I will tell you up front that one of my problems with the books is that I don't think the authors got those characters quite right - but the examination of Romulan culture was quite interesting.

My favorite parts, though, were those involving the main Romulan character interacting with her crew.

 

[SpaceLama]

Ooooh...

I WANT THAT!!!!

I've often thought an anthology of various Trek aliens' works of fiction would be a nifty idea.

Agreed! Such a complex, layered look at alien cultures could really work. It would be tough to pull off, but it would certainly be worth it.

Would it be any tougher than writing such a book, but set on Earth?

As long as someone is capable of writing how humans behave in real life, they should be able to write how human-oids behave. Its just a matter of writing what an Earth writer would, but setting it in the mountains of Qo'noS, or the back streets of Qu'vakh City, or whatever. Basically humanoids in Star Trek, are humans - they have human psychology, or else characters like Worf or Tuvok would never work - if they were not driven by the same psychology as humans, they would be utterly un-compelling to the viewer - therefore a good observer of humans should be a decent writer of Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, etc.

Obviously, some approaches to dealing with things would depend on the culture - when confronted with a crisis of confidence in a pupil, a Klingon hermit is more likely to take a 'sink or swim' approach - i.e. take the student out of their confort zone, and forge them in action - a Romulan instructor at an academy might instead relate how at the same age, he also lacked confidence, and explain intellectually how he overcame it.

One just needs to adapt human stories to Qo'noS or Cardassia or Andoria or Romulus - without doing it in a vulgar/overt way (i.e. 'Legate Hitlor' invades 'Polor'), without name-dropping obvious references (i.e. to Eagles, Lirpas and Kahless every damn sentence), and without destroying believability (i.e. by failing to understand why things like family fueds or wars or losses of self-confidence happen the way they do, in real life).

Example: Kahless is about as important to Klingon society as the Buddha is to Japan - but watch the entire film library of Kenji Mizoguchi and Akira Kurosawa, and you probably wouldnt find that many overt references to the Buddha. Some Trek writers tend to over-use references - so that if a monestary is mentioned in an episode, that same monestary is referenced across a dozen books - when there are probably thousands of others. Also if one does not have a very realistic view of how wars happen in real life, or how cultures form, its likely to make a historical story less believable. To do a story about a mok'bara warrior, one would have to be somewhat familiar with martial arts culture on Earth.

Some aspects of alien culture have to be taken from Earth, but don't have to be overt.

It seems to me Klingon culture is quite Asian, with their planet being largely tropical, dotted with temperate mountain ranges - so I always imagine Klingons to have aspects of Indian, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and South East Asian culture - Andoria might have had frozen towns that otherwise resemble 20s Chicago. As long as one isnt ignorant of the complexity of cultures on Earth - and as long as one recognises the common human(oid) experience that people share whether they are American or European or Indian or Chinese or African - all is good

Off the top of my head, a few ideas: a Cardassian equivalent of Master and Commander, set on the high seas of Cardassia prime - a Klingon martial arts tale that explores the spiritual side of Klingon life - a Romulan mafia tale, set in the seedy bars of Romulus - an Andorian horror story, where an expidition uncovers 'something' from under the ice


I'm just sick of seeing stories that read like this:


Commander Tolora admired the fine eagle-like features (oh no ) of her guest, while sipping Romulan ale (gah ).

"Is that a Lirpa on your wall?" (... ) asked Spock.

"Yes, a Vulcan weapon wielded by perhaps 0.01% of the Vulcan population has miraculously survived 2000 years in my family - and Romulan culture is so utterly boring, and unoriginal, that our decor consists entirly of ancient Vulcan weapons, and statues of eagles. Did I mention that nameless Romulan commander in 'Balance of Terror' happened to be my father, and that my son happens to be Praetor?"

"Oh. How statistically unlikely that, out of a trillion Romulan citizens, I should happen to have encountered your father, and your son should happen to be head of the entire Empire."

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Small comment...it's interesting, but I always imagined TNG Klingon culture as more Norse-like than Asian. Their art, clothing, and general culture (I swear I saw something once that looked like a mead-hall, except Klingon!) seems much more Viking than anything else.

 

[SpaceLama]

Yeah, that too

 

[Christopher]

As always, please be careful to avoid discussing story ideas in any detail in this forum.

 

[lstyer]

I'm just sick of seeing stories that read like this:


Commander Tolora admired the fine eagle-like features (oh no ) of her guest, while sipping Romulan ale (gah ).

"Is that a Lirpa on your wall?" (... ) asked Spock.

"Yes, a Vulcan weapon wielded by perhaps 0.01% of the Vulcan population has miraculously survived 2000 years in my family - and Romulan culture is so utterly boring, and unoriginal, that our decor consists entirly of ancient Vulcan weapons, and statues of eagles. Did I mention that nameless Romulan commander in 'Balance of Terror' happened to be my father, and that my son happens to be Praetor?"

"Oh. How statistically unlikely that, out of a trillion Romulan citizens, I should happen to have encountered your father, and your son should happen to be head of the entire Empire."

To be honest, the sort of thing you're talking about here bothers me more than does the issue of monolithic cultures.

While more diversity within the various species would probably be interesting, that doesn't seem to be how Star Trek, in general, works; rather than, for instance, examining how the Warrior-Guy Klingons interact with the Sneaky-Guy Klingons, Trek examines how the Klingons interact with the Romulans. That breaks down a little on the individual level, such that we might occasionally see The One Peaceful Klingon or even a small group of The One Peaceful Klingons, but in either case, these guys will be presented as aberrations. There are definitely problems with that approach, but it seems to me that it's the approach that has been chosen, and it does make for simple short-hand.

The "nameless Romulan Commander is my dad" thing, on the other hand, really gets on my nerves. I mean, as you say, we're dealing with nations who should have trillions (or at the very least many billions) of inhabitants, but the same place or person or family comes up again and again. It just makes the universe seem small to me, and that strikes me as totally antithetical to what Star Trek ought to be.

It's like the idea that there were only twelve Constitution Class starships, out of a nation with dozens of worlds, and thus many billions of people. That number just seems absurdly low to me.

All that said, though, In a way the monolithic cultures are a different side of that same scale-related coin, in that it does sort of make the universe seem smaller.

 

[SpaceLama]

@Christopher: I thought I had been careful

 

[EJA]

KRAD's Klingon Empire: A Burning House showed a range of different subcultures within Klingon society.

Such as?

 

[SpaceLama]

I'm just sick of seeing stories that read like this:


Commander Tolora admired the fine eagle-like features (oh no ) of her guest, while sipping Romulan ale (gah ).

"Is that a Lirpa on your wall?" (... ) asked Spock.

"Yes, a Vulcan weapon wielded by perhaps 0.01% of the Vulcan population has miraculously survived 2000 years in my family - and Romulan culture is so utterly boring, and unoriginal, that our decor consists entirly of ancient Vulcan weapons, and statues of eagles. Did I mention that nameless Romulan commander in 'Balance of Terror' happened to be my father, and that my son happens to be Praetor?"

"Oh. How statistically unlikely that, out of a trillion Romulan citizens, I should happen to have encountered your father, and your son should happen to be head of the entire Empire."

To be honest, the sort of thing you're talking about here bothers me more than does the issue of monolithic cultures.

While more diversity within the various species would probably be interesting, that doesn't seem to be how Star Trek, in general, works; rather than, for instance, examining how the Warrior-Guy Klingons interact with the Sneaky-Guy Klingons, Trek examines how the Klingons interact with the Romulans. That breaks down a little on the individual level, such that we might occasionally see The One Peaceful Klingon or even a small group of The One Peaceful Klingons, but in either case, these guys will be presented as aberrations. There are definitely problems with that approach, but it seems to me that it's the approach that has been chosen, and it does make for simple short-hand.

I understand the reason why - Trek was always a very episodic show when it was at its most classic - so aliens had to embody quick ideas. But then, TNG and DS9 started to expand on Romulan, Klingon and Cardassian culture - so those states at least, go against the alien-of-the-week rule.

The "nameless Romulan Commander is my dad" thing, on the other hand, really gets on my nerves. I mean, as you say, we're dealing with nations who should have trillions (or at the very least many billions) of inhabitants, but the same place or person or family comes up again and again. It just makes the universe seem small to me, and that strikes me as totally antithetical to what Star Trek ought to be.

Yeah, its a real pet hate of mine - and a common feature, I am sad to say, in tie-in literature (like the Skywalker family's endless darkside/lightside soap opera in Star Wars tie-in stuff). I just read Destiny, and it is a lot more tasteful than certain stuff in the past, when it came to handling crews - but I hope Titan + Aventine + Enterprise 'crossovers' don't start happening too frequently now.

 

[Christopher]

It's like the idea that there were only twelve Constitution Class starships, out of a nation with dozens of worlds, and thus many billions of people. That number just seems absurdly low to me.

Maybe it was just one class of starships out of many. These days, I like to assume that the Intrepid from "The Immunity Syndrome" wasn't a Connie but a Vulcan ringship like those in Enterprise. Maybe Earth provided Starfleet with a fleet of Connies, Vulcan provided a fleet of ringships, Andor and Tellar provided fleets of their own designs, etc.

@Christopher: I thought I had been careful

Not saying you crossed the line, just advising that those discussing the subject take care not to take it too far in future posts.

 

[SpaceLama]

It's like the idea that there were only twelve Constitution Class starships, out of a nation with dozens of worlds, and thus many billions of people. That number just seems absurdly low to me.

Maybe it was just one class of starships out of many. These days, I like to assume that the Intrepid from "The Immunity Syndrome" wasn't a Connie but a Vulcan ringship like those in Enterprise. Maybe Earth provided Starfleet with a fleet of Connies, Vulcan provided a fleet of ringships, Andor and Tellar provided fleets of their own designs, etc.

Yeah, when I was younger, I used to imagine that Starfleet was jointly built by Earth, Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite expertise, along with other Federation members.

These days, since ENT aired, the suggestion seems to be that Earth Starfleet became the Starfleet for all of the Federation. I guess this at least explains why there were so few Vulcans, Andorians, etc, serving in Starfleet by Kirk's time.

 

[lstyer]

Maybe it was just one class of starships out of many. These days, I like to assume that the Intrepid from "The Immunity Syndrome" wasn't a Connie but a Vulcan ringship like those in Enterprise. Maybe Earth provided Starfleet with a fleet of Connies, Vulcan provided a fleet of ringships, Andor and Tellar provided fleets of their own designs, etc.

That's a thought. I have a hard time squaring it with the fact that almost every Starfleet capital ship we've seen is pretty clearly derived from the design of the original Enterprise. Enterprise sort of goes along with what you're swaying, though, in that the NX-01 is explicitly an earth ship, and it, too, is based on the Original Enterprise. so the notion that that's just how Earth ships look works.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I've often thought an anthology of various Trek aliens' works of fiction would be a nifty idea.

Agreed! Such a complex, layered look at alien cultures could really work. It would be tough to pull off, but it would certainly be worth it.

Would it be any tougher than writing such a book, but set on Earth?

As long as someone is capable of writing how humans behave in real life, they should be able to write how human-oids behave. Its just a matter of writing what an Earth writer would, but setting it in the mountains of Qo'noS, or the back streets of Qu'vakh City, or whatever. Basically humanoids in Star Trek, are humans - they have human psychology, or else characters like Worf or Tuvok would never work - if they were not driven by the same psychology as humans, they would be utterly un-compelling to the viewer - therefore a good observer of humans should be a decent writer of Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, etc.

Ah, but I don't want my Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians etc to simply be humans telling human stories set somewhere else. They can be that to a point, but I want each to be a distinct form of being (and the novels have indeed helped make it so). I wouldn't be too thrilled with a story written as part of this hypothetical project that was simply a human archetype but with the names changed so it fits in on Qo'noS. Yes, you're right of course that TV Trek does often do that (most of its aliens are humans to all intents and purposes)- and it's not a bad thing by any means, for TV or even some novels- but in literature, where there's more room for worldbuilding, I prefer my aliens to feel alien.

They can still be used to illuminate humanity, and, as you say, basic psychological similarities are necessary (and I guess logical given shared humanoid biology/environmental requirements). However, to me, simply telling a Cardassian or Andorian version of an Earth saga would miss the entire point of attempting to craft these tales as fiction from the alien's own viewpoint. That's what I found so intriguing about this hypothetical project- most Trek stories (naturally)show us alien societies and alien viewpoints (to differing degrees of "alien" as you acknowledge), but they are always geared directly to a human readership (obviously). With this idea, however, you'd have to work to overcome that. It's not simply "how would an Andorian see the world?", or even "how would an Andorian explain or describe an Andorian way of thinking to outsiders?"- both of these questions have been asked and explored by multiple authors- here, the question would be, "how does an Andorian hypothetically take an Andorian mode of thinking and apply it to imaginative works of fiction aimed at other Andorians?". That's a very complex idea, bringing in a whole new layer of author creativity and cultural illumination. I believe it would be challenging, but the writers involved could really, really make it worth it.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Day of the Vipers gives us a very vivid, detailed look at Bajoran society, too, with its numerous castes and the intersections and conflicts of the Militia, church, and Chamber of Ministers in the years leading up to the Occupation.

The Cardassians were probably also the most fleshed out culture on TV, owing to DS9 being focused on Bajoran and Cardassian society.

I started Day of the Vipers about a month ago. I got to page 60 and must confess I found it boring. I have this 50 page rule for books. If it doesn't arouse my interest in 50 pages I figure I'm probably wasting my time. Since DS9 is my favorite Trek series I hoped this would be good. I gave up on Star Trek novels many years ago.

But DS9 fleshed out Bajoran culture and by default the Cardassians more than anything else that has been done in TV Trek. Enterprise showed more of Vulcan culture though the Romulans showing up in that 3 part episode about Surak's katra was surprising.

But are these different cultures in Star Trek and other sci-fi supposed to make us think about how to evolve our culture or is it just irrelevant entertainment for SF geeks?

Are these computers that we now have all over the place an opportunity to Vulcanize this planets culture. Is all of the BAD Science in Star Trek episodes and books a hindrance to that?

psik

 

[SpaceLama]

Agreed! Such a complex, layered look at alien cultures could really work. It would be tough to pull off, but it would certainly be worth it.

Would it be any tougher than writing such a book, but set on Earth?

As long as someone is capable of writing how humans behave in real life, they should be able to write how human-oids behave. Its just a matter of writing what an Earth writer would, but setting it in the mountains of Qo'noS, or the back streets of Qu'vakh City, or whatever. Basically humanoids in Star Trek, are humans - they have human psychology, or else characters like Worf or Tuvok would never work - if they were not driven by the same psychology as humans, they would be utterly un-compelling to the viewer - therefore a good observer of humans should be a decent writer of Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, etc.

Ah, but I don't want my Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians etc to simply be humans telling human stories set somewhere else. They can be that to a point, but I want each to be a distinct form of being (and the novels have indeed helped make it so). I wouldn't be too thrilled with a story written as part of this hypothetical project that was simply a human archetype but with the names changed so it fits in on Qo'noS. Yes, you're right of course that TV Trek does often do that (most of its aliens are humans to all intents and purposes)- and it's not a bad thing by any means, for TV or even some novels- but in literature, where there's more room for worldbuilding, I prefer my aliens to feel alien.

They can still be used to illuminate humanity, and, as you say, basic psychological similarities are necessary (and I guess logical given shared humanoid biology/environmental requirements). However, to me, simply telling a Cardassian or Andorian version of an Earth saga would miss the entire point of attempting to craft these tales as fiction from the alien's own viewpoint. That's what I found so intriguing about this hypothetical project- most Trek stories (naturally)show us alien societies and alien viewpoints (to differing degrees of "alien" as you acknowledge), but they are always geared directly to a human readership (obviously). With this idea, however, you'd have to work to overcome that. It's not simply "how would an Andorian see the world?", or even "how would an Andorian explain or describe an Andorian way of thinking to outsiders?"- both of these questions have been asked and explored by multiple authors- here, the question would be, "how does an Andorian hypothetically take an Andorian mode of thinking and apply it to imaginative works of fiction aimed at other Andorians?". That's a very complex idea, bringing in a whole new layer of author creativity and cultural illumination. I believe it would be challenging, but the writers involved could really, really make it worth it.

Having a truely alien being as a main character would simply not work - Tuvok and Worf arnt simply human-like because of the limitations of TV - they are human-like because they would not work as characters if they werent. If Alexander was incapable of going through an identity crisis, if Worf was incapable of experiencing despair, none of their character episodes would have worked.

You misunderstand me if you think I am saying making Klingons have human psychology is opitional - it is simply the only possible way they can exist as they do currently - or else there would be no IKS Gorkon series, no Worf, etc. If you want truely alien-like beings, watch Solyaris or read Revelation Space

 

[Sci]

I started Day of the Vipers about a month ago. I got to page 60 and must confess I found it boring. I have this 50 page rule for books. If it doesn't arouse my interest in 50 pages I figure I'm probably wasting my time. Since DS9 is my favorite Trek series I hoped this would be good. I gave up on Star Trek novels many years ago.

You, sir, have denied yourself a really good book -- a wonderful look at a society that allows the greed and self-interest of its elites to lead them to betray their own people, gradually falling under the heel of a foreign world with no one realizing until it's too late.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It definitely has a slow start--but it's worth it. Even if you really only pay attention to the Cardassian parts for the first parts of it, it'll be very rewarding.