Monolithic cultures in Star Trek lit?

[Deranged Nasat]

Although he was agreeing with you at the time, Christopher seems to also share this view of humanoids like the Cardassians being purely human in terms of psychology, and not having significant evolutionary differences in behavior:

Basically, "alien" cultures in ST are like nonexistent human cultures. They all fall within the range of known human behaviors and beliefs, but there are variations that make them exotic to the typical viewer or reader, at least the Western viewer or reader.

"fall within the range of known human behaviors and beliefs"

Garak may say Cardassians and different in biology - and Voyager may have said Vulcan's posses glands that supress emotional response - but it seems the overall effect must be to produce identical psychologies - with only the culture being different - as unlikely as that seems.

Yes, alien cultures having a similar range of behaviours and beliefs to humans would indeed appear to imply very similar or basically compatable psychologies/neurologies. For those cultures to fall within the range of known human behaviours neccessitates a shared standard of psychological and so presumably neurological construction, I certainly acknowledge this. As I said, I agree entirely the Trek aliens- Humanoids in particular-are indeed essentially human in their thinking and behaviour. However, that doesn't mean they aren't "exoticized" in places by a few significant alien additions, including perhaps a different perception of memory or self recognition resulting from slightly altered neurology, as ASiT implies to a limited extent about Cardassians. The base psychological template is there, but there might be a bit of imaginative tinkering that wouldn't result in the cultural traits intended to result from this mode of thinking becoming too inhuman and thus inaccessible. I essentially agree with you, I'm just cautious about saying "they're human, that's all, end of story" when I think more thought often goes into it than that.

 

[SpaceLama]

Memory maybe, but not something like capacity for compassion, or capacity for egotism.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Memory maybe, but not something like capacity for compassion, or capacity for egotism.

Well that's okay, then. I don't remember suggesting there were any humanoid races in Trek who fell outside of human psychological/cultural ranges in terms of compassion or egotism experienced or demonstrated.

 

[SpaceLama]

Thats all ive been talking about all along - that telling a 19th century Andorian crime novel, set in the slums of one of their cities, would not work if that species did not posses the same basic motives as humans - and that as long as an author can write a human crime story okay, they should presumably be able to write an Andorian one okay.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I doubt that would work - to deliberatly give Klingons or Andorians inhuman psychology, would send their entire portrayal out of balance - because all psychology is linked - you couldnt have a conflict of duty for example, in a culture that did not have the psychology that underlies duty, loyalty, etc.

You don't have to make it entirely or even mostly inhuman--you can do it in a very subtle manner. Unfortunately I cannot post an example of how I've done it in my fanfic, but all it takes is a very, very slight tweak to give you an alien feel while still keeping it humanoid. These species ARE all still related to each other, as we've seen in "The Chase," so for most of the humanoid "base template" to be the same psychologically as well makes sense...though I think it's possible for there to be some tiny differences. As you say, all psychology is linked, so even a very tiny change can have great effect or at least be visible enough that we can see its impact but still understand the majority of what's going on.

Vulcan psychology would be one example, I think--pon farr, repression of emotions...still mostly the same base template, but the differences manifest in a way that we recognize.

(If you do need a further example, PM me. As I said, I can't share it here.)

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Thats all ive been talking about all along - that telling a 19th century Andorian crime novel, set in the slums of one of their cities, would not work if that species did not posses the same basic motives as humans - and that as long as an author can write a human crime story okay, they should presumably be able to write an Andorian one okay.

Indeed, but what I was saying is that putting yourself not only in an Andorian cultural mindset- which would be distinct from that of a human despite essentially identical emotions and desires underlying it-but also writing as if aimed at other Andorians holding similar cultural assumptions would be a challenge and an interesting exercise. We surely don't want a crime novel identical to a Human one only with the names different. Where's the fun or interest in that? I don't think we can say "it's just the same as writing a human crime story". We're not talking about a crime story that happens to be set on Andor, we're talking about an actual Andorian story (so to speak).

 

[Christopher]

Although he was agreeing with you at the time, Christopher seems to also share this view of humanoids like the Cardassians being purely human in terms of psychology, and not having significant evolutionary differences in behavior:

Basically, "alien" cultures in ST are like nonexistent human cultures. They all fall within the range of known human behaviors and beliefs, but there are variations that make them exotic to the typical viewer or reader, at least the Western viewer or reader.

"fall within the range of known human behaviors and beliefs"

I think you're interpreting my words too rigidly. I'm actually more in agreement with Deranged Nasat here and I think you're being a little too inflexible. You're both basically saying the same thing, but there's a difference in nuance you don't seem to be getting.

Yes, alien cultures in fiction are built from behavioral elements that are recognizable to humans. But no, they are not exactly like real humans, because they combine those elements in ways that haven't occurred on Earth. They take familiar human elements and use those as a starting point for extrapolation into the unknown. Not far enough into the unknown that it ceases to become recognizable, but farther than you're alleging here.

After all, it's always possible to use the imagination to extrapolate beyond existing knowledge, to make predictions about hypothetical situations. Even admitting that Trek "aliens" are basically variant humans, they can be variant in ways that don't occur on Earth, in the same way that many science fiction stories are about actual humans transformed in speculative ways. How would humans change if they were immortal? If they were telepathic? If they could remake their bodies at will? If they engineered themselves to be all-female or hermaphroditic? All of these and more have been explored in SF, and they all go beyond known human experience and culture. What we know about human nature is the beginning of the process, the thing that grounds speculative fiction enough to keep it relatable. It is not, as you seem to think, the outer limit of the process.

Naturally all fiction has to have enough of a familiar grounding to be relatable to its audience. But it's the job of speculative fiction to challenge its audience's imagination, to use the familiar merely as a starting point for a journey beyond the familiar. You can give the audience familiar anchors to connect to but still show them things they've never contemplated before, challenge them to stretch their minds to think in ways they haven't attempted before. There's a big difference between how people typically think and the limits of how they're capable of thinking. That "range of known human behaviors and beliefs" is astonishingly broad and goes far beyond what most people would define as normal or even comprehensible. (After all, the mentally ill are human too. But I expect the thoughts of a schizophrenic would be extremely alien to you.)

 

[SpaceLama]

P.S. @Nasat: this is also why originally, I only talked about fleshing out Romulan/Klingon culture - not fleshing out their psychology - I am happy with how Romulan motives have been written in most Star Trek stories. What I am not completely satisfied with, is how alien cultures have been shown in some books as being extremely un-diverse in cultural terms - for example, having a Romulan society that seems to consist entirely of Roman senators, and Roman centurions - but seems to have no bars, no charities, no criminals, no resteraunts, no schools, no painters, no musicians, no scientists, no philosophers, etc, etc, etc, etc - where the entire culture seems to amount to a bunch of people yapping on about eagles and antique Vulcan swords.

 

[SpaceLama]

Thats all ive been talking about all along - that telling a 19th century Andorian crime novel, set in the slums of one of their cities, would not work if that species did not posses the same basic motives as humans - and that as long as an author can write a human crime story okay, they should presumably be able to write an Andorian one okay.

Indeed, but what I was saying is that putting yourself not only in an Andorian cultural mindset- which would be distinct from that of a human despite essentially identical emotions and desires underlying it-but also writing as if aimed at other Andorians holding similar cultural assumptions would be a challenge and an interesting exercise. We surely don't want a crime novel identical to a Human one only with the names different. Where's the fun or interest in that? I don't think we can say "it's just the same as writing a human crime story". We're not talking about a crime story that happens to be set on Andor, we're talking about an actual Andorian story (so to speak).

That goes without saying, I would have thought

Obviously, the Andorian crime story would not have zh'Al zh'Apone instead of Al Capone - it would also have to come up with Andorian ways of dealing with law, crime, social justice, etc... ...but still have the same underlying motives like compassion, etc, as human societies.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Thats all ive been talking about all along - that telling a 19th century Andorian crime novel, set in the slums of one of their cities, would not work if that species did not posses the same basic motives as humans - and that as long as an author can write a human crime story okay, they should presumably be able to write an Andorian one okay.

Indeed, but what I was saying is that putting yourself not only in an Andorian cultural mindset- which would be distinct from that of a human despite essentially identical emotions and desires underlying it-but also writing as if aimed at other Andorians holding similar cultural assumptions would be a challenge and an interesting exercise. We surely don't want a crime novel identical to a Human one only with the names different. Where's the fun or interest in that? I don't think we can say "it's just the same as writing a human crime story". We're not talking about a crime story that happens to be set on Andor, we're talking about an actual Andorian story (so to speak).

That goes without saying, I would have thought

Obviously, the Andorian crime story would not have zh'Al zh'Apone instead of Al Capone - it would also have to come up with Andorian ways of dealing with law, crime, social justice, etc... ...but still have the same underlying motives like compassion, etc, as human societies.

Agreed.

 

[SpaceLama]

Although he was agreeing with you at the time, Christopher seems to also share this view of humanoids like the Cardassians being purely human in terms of psychology, and not having significant evolutionary differences in behavior:

Basically, "alien" cultures in ST are like nonexistent human cultures. They all fall within the range of known human behaviors and beliefs, but there are variations that make them exotic to the typical viewer or reader, at least the Western viewer or reader.

"fall within the range of known human behaviors and beliefs"

I think you're interpreting my words too rigidly. I'm actually more in agreement with Deranged Nasat here and I think you're being a little too inflexible. You're both basically saying the same thing, but there's a difference in nuance you don't seem to be getting.

Yes, alien cultures in fiction are built from behavioral elements that are recognizable to humans. But no, they are not exactly like real humans, because they combine those elements in ways that haven't occurred on Earth. They take familiar human elements and use those as a starting point for extrapolation into the unknown. Not far enough into the unknown that it ceases to become recognizable, but farther than you're alleging here.

I dunno Christopher...

In 3 seasons of TOS, 7 seasons of TNG, 7 seasons of DS9, 7 seasons of VOY and 4 seasons of ENT - I don't think I ever saw anything in Klingon culture that had not occurred on Earth at some point.

Ritual suicide upon becoming disabled or dishonoured - check. Emphasis on martial philosophy of honour and challenging dishonour - check. A Empire based on loose tribute and fuedal loyalties - check. Bloodletting for sport and entertainment - check. Rigid social stratification through a caste system - check.

Is any of this really "an extrapolation beyond existing knolwedge"?

If they engineered themselves to be all-female or hermaphroditic?

This is where Trek really does start to speculate - but note that the Klingons, Cardassians, etc, don't fall into this catagory.

 

[Christopher]

I dunno Christopher...

In 3 seasons of TOS, 7 seasons of TNG, 7 seasons of DS9, 7 seasons of VOY and 4 seasons of ENT - I don't think I ever saw anything in Klingon culture that had not occurred on Earth at some point.

Ritual suicide upon becoming disabled or dishonoured - check. Emphasis on martial philosophy of honour and challenging dishonour - check. A Empire based on loose tribute and fuedal loyalties - check. Bloodletting for sport and entertainment - check. Rigid social stratification through a caste system - check.

Is any of this really "an extrapolation beyond existing knolwedge"?

You're choosing to define things in a way that's deliberately exclusionistic, and as such are missing the point. First off, I was talking theoretically about SF in general, not limiting myself to existing Star Trek stories. After all, this thread is a discussion of what could be done in writing about alien cultures, not merely of what has been done in ST to date.

Second, yes, even if the individual ingredients are familiar, it's still possible to put them together in a way that is recognizably distinct from any real culture and that therefore has its own distinct flavor. I'm not talking about creating something entirely beyond human experience, I'm talking about telling a story that gives the reader the impression of something exotic and novel. The goal of fiction is to create an impression in the reader's mind. As long as the culture feels to the reader like something new, exotic, and different, then the writer has succeeded. It's like inventing a new recipe. You don't need to obtain brand-new ingredients from other planets to give your patrons a novel dining experience; you just have to find a fresh and imaginative way of putting known ingredients together to create a result they've never tasted before.

 

[SpaceLama]

Second, yes, even if the individual ingredients are familiar, it's still possible to put them together in a way that is recognizably distinct from any real culture and that therefore has its own distinct flavor. I'm not talking about creating something entirely beyond human experience, I'm talking about telling a story that gives the reader the impression of something exotic and novel. The goal of fiction is to create an impression in the reader's mind. As long as the culture feels to the reader like something new, exotic, and different, then the writer has succeeded. It's like inventing a new recipe. You don't need to obtain brand-new ingredients from other planets to give your patrons a novel dining experience; you just have to find a fresh and imaginative way of putting known ingredients together to create a result they've never tasted before.

Yeah, I agree completely.

 

[rahullak]

Second, yes, even if the individual ingredients are familiar, it's still possible to put them together in a way that is recognizably distinct from any real culture and that therefore has its own distinct flavor. I'm not talking about creating something entirely beyond human experience, I'm talking about telling a story that gives the reader the impression of something exotic and novel. The goal of fiction is to create an impression in the reader's mind. As long as the culture feels to the reader like something new, exotic, and different, then the writer has succeeded. It's like inventing a new recipe. You don't need to obtain brand-new ingredients from other planets to give your patrons a novel dining experience; you just have to find a fresh and imaginative way of putting known ingredients together to create a result they've never tasted before.

I really like that analogy. The whole being greater than the sum of its parts and all.

 

[LightningStorm]

I really like that analogy. The whole being greater than the sum of its parts and all.

Hmm... someone should title a novel this way....

 

[Pauln6]

There has been some successful useage of non-humanoid psychology in sci-fi but you tend to find that writers feel that if we can't understand the aliens they are generally bad or relegated to the role of monster (something used to masterful effect with the horta).

The Vorlons and Shadows in B5 were interesting incomprehensible non-humanoids in every respect. The culture and psychology of the Ovions in Battlestar Galactica was cool, albeit only touched upon in the movie and novels. Another good example is the Tholians. If we can't relate to them as character concepts then the characters can't relate to them either and the plot becomes about understanding/deducing motivations rather than comparing their implementation to our own. This can still be fun but I think it is more limiting. I think adversaries in literature need a starting point, a broad baseline on which to build their skewed take on the universe. We'd probably struggle to relate to a klingon flower arranger because it is such a tangent to this baseline. Having said that, Garak's 'simple tailor' was used to great effect - I actually preferred him when he was portrayed as the tailor who knew too much.

 

[SpaceLama]

The Vorlons and Shadows lost some of their enigma when they explianed themselves in front of the humanoid fleet - sometimes a good mystery is better left unsolved although it is understandable why they were elaborated upon.

 

[Steve Roby]

Babylon 5 did a slightly better job of rounding out the alien cultures and characters,

I always thought that was one of B5's weaknesses. Not only were the aliens culturally monolithic (despite the different Minbari castes), JMS even wrote an episode in which the fact that aliens are culturally monolithic was a key part of the story: The Parliament of Dreams, in which every other species has one religion and humanity is represented by its rich diversity of beliefs. I remember watching that and thinking, JMS thinks he's saying something meaningful about humans, but what he's really doing is demonstrating that his alien cultures are one-dimensional.

and the most satisfying thing about the new cylons in BSG was that it was actually really very hard to get a handle on what their motivations were (I'm looking forward to the Plan too).

The fact that the writers were making a lot of it up as it went along explained that for me. I don't know if they can come up with an inside-the-box explanation that will be both convincing and consistent with everything that happened in the series.

 

[shivkala]

While we're mentioning B5 in this thread, I do want to bring up a pet peeve of mine in regards to monolithic cultures and humanity. It was Babylon 5 that I first encountered the idea that it was because humanity isn't monolithic that we could unite the other races.

It worked (mostly) for me in B5, but overall I think it's a lazy way of explaining why a particular Sci-Fi story (be it books, movies, television shows, etc.) is Earth-centric.

 

[Pauln6]

Babylon 5 did a slightly better job of rounding out the alien cultures and characters,

I always thought that was one of B5's weaknesses. Not only were the aliens culturally monolithic (despite the different Minbari castes), JMS even wrote an episode in which the fact that aliens are culturally monolithic was a key part of the story: The Parliament of Dreams, in which every other species has one religion and humanity is represented by its rich diversity of beliefs. I remember watching that and thinking, JMS thinks he's saying something meaningful about humans, but what he's really doing is demonstrating that his alien cultures are one-dimensional.

and the most satisfying thing about the new cylons in BSG was that it was actually really very hard to get a handle on what their motivations were (I'm looking forward to the Plan too).

The fact that the writers were making a lot of it up as it went along explained that for me. I don't know if they can come up with an inside-the-box explanation that will be both convincing and consistent with everything that happened in the series.

Not every race in B5 was culturally monolithic, particularly if you read the background that JMS penned. There were factions in all three castes of the minbari, the internal politics of the narn and centauri could be complex, and there were different narn and centauri religions. There were even political variations within the vorlons, although it wasn't easy to tell. As is very typical, we are usually limited to interactions with the 'nobility' in the same way that Trek focuses on officers (and frequently senior officers) so this limits diversity even further. Mind you, this is typical of diplomatic relations. Nobody wants lower class protesters pelting the Federation diplomats with flarn. Farscape often did the opposite - focusing largely on the lower classes.

Most writers make up the alien cultures as they go along but I'm looking forward to seeing if they can make some sense of the cylon motivations in the new movie. I suppose when cultures are introduced writers only expand on them as much as they need to for the purpose of that particular story and Trek's tendency to feature 'alien of the week' instead of focusing on a few cultures leads to this monolthic cultures.