Mirror Universe after Discovery left

[TimeIsAPredator]

The Mirror universe was stupid before Discovery; long before.

Should have been left as a TOS thing

 

[fireproof78]

Should have been left as a TOS thing

Maybe, maybe not. I enjoyed ENT's outing and DSC's outing so I don't see the issue right off of exploring it more. Execution was a bit uneven, and I think that the Charon was a bit too far. But I did appreciate the different points of view within the Terran Empire, rather than just assuming they were all identical.

 

[Lord Garth]

The only Mirror Universe episode I outright disliked was "The Emperor's New Cloak" (DS9). I didn't particularly care for "Resurrection" (DS9) either, but I don't really count that one since they didn't actually go to the Mirror Universe; a character from over there went to them.

I liked the Mirror Universe arc on DSC because it was a chance to see the Terran Empire in its prime. In TOS, all we got to see was the Enterprise. They showed us a whole lot more in Discovery. Discovery itself, the Shenzhou, the Resistance, the Emperor's forces, and Lorca's splinter faction. They went all-out and did a lot with the four episodes they had. And the Empire had a lot more bite to it in DSC than it did in ENT where they just liked to talk in whispers and thought that would make them sound evil.

@F. King Daniel put it best. It was like the Mirror Universe arc from DC Comics in the '80s come to life. I loved those. In the '90s, I bought a graphic novel that combined all those issues.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

ENT was actually all right and the first DS9 episode was nice only to see how things had changed but let down by stuff like kinky Kira and as MU goes on the small universe stuff only gets worse the more you see that certain characters are destined to be together. DIS does well in explaining why Burnham and Lorca are together in both timelines but her mentor is emperor was terrible and when DS9 showed us that Sisco had the same crew even worse

 

[fireproof78]

I saw no issues with her mentor being the emperor...

 

[drt]

I'm more of the school of thought that a Mirror is created anew whenever somebody crosses over. Or, rather, selected from an infinite lot.

The Mirrors are always slightly different anyway: sometimes the Terrans have cloaks, but in a later visit to "the" realm, they suddenly don't, say. If there is no "the" there, if every visit automatically hits a parallel universe with a visitor-sized and -shaped hole in it but few other criteria, then there's no need for this sort of consistency - and also no concept of "consequence". The Emperor might go missing in one Mirror, but another, almost identical one would exist where she's still there and it's the visitor's counterpart who's missing.

Then again, one Mirror Kira did say that events similar to those of "Mirror, Mirror" happened in her realm's past. Not necessarily exactly the same way, but similar enough. Which just means that Lord Garth's vision would come to pass, with the detail varying from Mirror to Mirror...

This has always been my opinion as well, there's really no other way for every time they visit through the centuries to have all the characters mirrored so precisely, in such a violent society, some of the characters should already been killed or in a completely different job, place, etc.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

I saw no issues with her mentor being the emperor...

Its more about all the coincidences put together across all the shows. The more you explore the MU the more implausible it becomes. It gives the impression that the characters are destined to be together across timelines.

If I was to explose the MU I would rather see it with 1 main character with unrelated characters in a Short Trek or something

 

[fireproof78]

Its more about all the coincidences put together across all the shows. The more you explore the MU the more implausible it becomes. It gives the impression that the characters are destined to be together across timelines.

That's pretty much been the major conceit for most of Trek. I mean, you have the "Alternative Factor," the MU, as well as other time travel shenanigans where things line up perfectly.

I see your point to a degree, and of course enjoyment of the story will vary. But, the MU is just set up as being that destiny arena where people are going to find themselves in similar positions. I think that's the hook to the premise. For good, bad or everywhere in between.

 

[somebuddyX]

The best Mirror Universe stories have something unique to say or see or do rather than just being an excuse to visit the universe each year to check in on them. It's just a comic book evil universe that shouldn't be looked too deeply at because of the necessities of plot or logistics, other than remembering that you already introduced cloaks into this universe so you don't need to steal and bring one there as a major plot point.

 

[Lord Garth]

The best Mirror Universe stories have something unique to say or see or do rather than just being an excuse to visit the universe each year to check in on them.

Yes. This is exactly what eventually became my issue with the Mirror Universe episodes on DS9. I would've been happy if "Shattered Mirror" had been the last MU episode over in that series. And even in the earlier MU episodes on DS9, the Terran Empire had already fallen. So, from the beginning, it was always "Okay, so this is what happened after The End". And I'm sorry, but the Terrans as the "good guys" just feels wrong. Not what I expect from the MU in general.

The ENT two-parter was okay, but that's it.

So, really, "Mirror, Mirror" and the Disco episodes are my go-to for the Mirror Universe. Those are the only ones I ever feel inclined to revisit.

I got what I wanted from the Mirror Universe out of DSC so, at this point, I might not be against them showing the Mirror Universe again but I don't feel a particularly yearning need to see it again either. Except for Captain Killy. I feel like we got cheated out of not seeing her. If S1 had more episodes, I think we would've seen her at least once for sure.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Its more about all the coincidences put together across all the shows. The more you explore the MU the more implausible it becomes. It gives the impression that the characters are destined to be together across timelines.

If I was to explose the MU I would rather see it with 1 main character with unrelated characters in a Short Trek or something

Spock's "currents of time" from COTEOF is the best explanation for the same people always interacting in the same place at the same time dispite hugely different circumstances.

I guess there's no free will in the Trekverse.

 

[dupersuper]

I saw no issues with her mentor being the emperor...

Its more about all the coincidences put together across all the shows. The more you explore the MU the more implausible it becomes. It gives the impression that the characters are destined to be together across timelines.

I mean, the whole concept is that it's a mirror universe...

 

[Dukhat]

The Mirror universe was stupid before Discovery; long before.

I've mentioned this before, but I think it is apt to be restated: While probably not the original intention, I've always viewed the 'Mirror universe' from TOS as a fantasy created by the Halkans, who had more going on than the Enterprise crew knew about (a la the Organians). Here are the dialogue lines in question:

HALKAN LEADER: We believe what you say, Captain Kirk, but our position has not altered. The Halkan Council cannot permit your Federation to mine dilithium crystals on our planet.
KIRK: We have shown the council historical proof that our missions are peaceful.
HALKAN LEADER: We accept that your Federation is benevolent at present, but the future is always in question. Our dilithium crystals represent awesome power. Wrongful use of that power, even to the extent of the taking of one life, would violate our history of total peace. To prevent that, we would die, Captain. As a race, if necessary.
KIRK: I admire your ethics and hope to prove ours.

Then:

KIRK: When may we resume discussion?
HALKAN LEADER: The council will meditate further, but do not be hopeful of any change. Captain, you do have the might to force the crystals from us, of course.
KIRK: But we won't. Consider that.

Then after Kirk et. al 'cross over' to the mirror universe:

KIRK: It is useless to resist us.
HALKAN LEADER: We do not resist you.
KIRK: You have twelve hours to consider your position.
HALKAN LEADER: Twelve years, Captain Kirk, or twelve thousand. We are ethically compelled to deny your demand for our dilithium crystals, for you would use their power to destroy.
KIRK: We will level your planet and take what we want. That is destruction. You will die as a race.
HALKAN LEADER: To preserve what we are.

The Halkans do not change at all in the Mirror universe. They are exactly the same. But while Kirk, his crew, the Enterprise and Starfleet Command are the same, they have all suddenly become this evil Empire instead of the Federation. Logically, none of this makes sense. Either everyone in the mirror universe should have an evil counterpart to their prime universe counterparts (which they don't), or the evil that has been going on in the mirror universe for some time would make said universe completely unrecognizable from the prime universe (which it isn't.) So if I were to think logically, I'd come to the conclusion that the events that happened in "Mirror Mirror" couldn't possibly have happened the exact way they did, and that quite possibly someone was pulling the wool over my eyes, so to speak. Why? It's right there in the Halkan leader's dialogue. He believes that there is a chance that the benevolent Federation will eventually change as a result of using the Halkan's crystals. He even tells Kirk that he could just take the crystals if he wants, even though Kirk says he wouldn't. I could interpret that the Halkans then decide to test Kirk and his crew about this by putting them in a scenario where Kirk is pressured to use force to get what he wants, to see what his reaction would be.

But of course, that's not what happened. Thanks to DS9, the Mirror universe is indeed a thing, and not just a projection of the Halkan's minds.

 

[fireproof78]

I've mentioned this before, but I think it is apt to be restated: While probably not the original intention, I've always viewed the 'Mirror universe' from TOS as a fantasy created by the Halkans, who had more going on than the Enterprise crew knew about (a la the Organians). Here are the dialogue lines in question:

Perhaps the illusion took on a life of its own. Basically like a computer program and the Halkans allowed it to continue to explore humanity further.

 

[Awesome Possum]

There's not enough information for me to go on to go any further. It seems pretty cut-and-dried, based on what we've seen in TOS, DS9, and DSC. So I just went with the way I think things would go based on what little we have to go on.

Anything more is crossing over from speculation to fan-fiction or reading into what's not there.

But here's one piece of speculation: I think the Emperor-ship might be hereditary, until someone from outside overthrows it and starts a family line of rulers of their own. Might as well throw ENT into the mix too. I think Georgiou might be a descendant of Empress Sato. If that's the case, and Mirror Burnham was Emperor Georgiou's adopted daughter because she couldn't have a child of her own, then the line that started with Hoshi Sato ended with Phillipa Georgiou. So the the next Emperor was probably an outsider. But that's pure speculation on my part.

Sato is a Japanese surname, but Georgiou is a Greek surname. So Georgiou in the Prime Timeline might have a Greek ancestor. If that's the case, then it's possible a descendant of Sato's and an ancestor of Georgiou's married a spouse who was Greek and took on their name. Once again: speculation.

I don't think that Georgiou is related to Satu, however she take on the name to tie her to Satu to put that idea in the head of the Empire. Roman emperors would do this all the time to gain legitimacy.

 

[Mudd]

Should have been left as a TOS thing

Yeah, it was a clever one-off idea.

 

[RAMA]

The theory is that something is "off" in that universe, the very essence of that peculiar subatomic soup is going to keep it off-kilter compared to ours...the proof is, the much-anticipated overthrow of the Terran Empire expected by MU Spock and normal Kirk never materialized. This slight unease as the normal crew inhabited that universe was portrayed brilliantly in Discovery and set it apart from previous installments.

To me this is what makes MU Lorca the equal to Khan as the greatest Trek "villain", as he had to have the intelligence, the cunning, the sheer will to overcome this long enough to fool a normal universe crew, and accomplish his aims.

RAMA

Any thoughts about what happened after Burnham brought the Emperor back with her? How does this set up Mirror Mirror.

Also, how does the destruction of Quo'nos lead to the Cardassian-Klingon alliances victory over the Terran Empire?

 

[fireproof78]

To me this is what makes MU Lorca the equal to Khan as the greatest Trek "villain", as he had to have the intelligence, the cunning, the sheer will to overcome this long enough to fool a normal universe crew, and accomplish his aims.

I think that is the most interesting part of him. He had the opportunity and he seized it to fit himself in to this new universe, to become enough of a useful soldier to further his own ends. He was a man of great foresight to see the Prime Universe and their values as an asset to be utilized, and not a weakness to be dominated. It's the reverse situation of Kirk and Mirror Spock, where Kirk is able to convince Mirror Spock that changing the Empire is possible by one man. Lorca convinces Discovery's crew that taking down an Empire by eliminating one person is completely possible.

As an aside, its moments like that, were that Mirror nature vs. Prime nature is showcased is what makes the Mirror universe so interesting for me, regardless of the silliness of the concept.

Yes, it makes no logical sense but the reflection of different lives and developments just is fun.