Mirror, Mirror notes

[cgervasi]

And it seems very sexist - Captain's woman.

I never understood that. It seemed like Kirk's girlfriend had to have a boyfriend. She tells Kirk if he wants to leave her, she's got someone lined up a a stopgap boyfriend, but then she needs to be transferred to another ship to hunt fresh game. She also says she works in a chem lab. Does she make no effort to advance in that capacity, i.e. by making poison or explosives or just by being a reliable chemist for whoever the top dog is? Does all her career advancement come from her boyfriends? Maybe it's both. Maybe people do advance by doing their job, but on the side women have boyfriends and men commit murders.
The sexism of it doesn't bother me because it's supposed it's the mirror universe where people are bad. But I was very unclear how the sluttiness fits in. What do people do when they're 50 y/o, still fully capable of doing an intellectual job like chemistry, still able to fight, but past the age of having a lot of boyfriends and girlfriends? Do they take to mother and grandmother roles, where they're supposedly honored for traditional roles maintaining the home? Maybe their goal is to get pregnant by some high-ranking person.
My point in this depressing line of thinking is that I understood how the men desired to seize power through violence, but I don't understand what Kirk's girlfriend was after.

 

[cgervasi]

[The mirror uniforms are] Visual shorthand to show they aren't in Kansas anymore.

And if they appeared in uniforms from the other universe, it would have made everyone immediately suspect that the people who materialized were not the same people... that they were people from another universe or something like that.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I never understood that. It seemed like Kirk's girlfriend had to have a boyfriend. She tells Kirk if he wants to leave her, she's got someone lined up a a stopgap boyfriend, but then she needs to be transferred to another ship to hunt fresh game. She also says she works in a chem lab. Does she make no effort to advance in that capacity, i.e. by making poison or explosives or just by being a reliable chemist for whoever the top dog is? Does all her career advancement come from her boyfriends? Maybe it's both. Maybe people do advance by doing their job, but on the side women have boyfriends and men commit murders.
The sexism of it doesn't bother me because it's supposed it's the mirror universe where people are bad. But I was very unclear how the sluttiness fits in. What do people do when they're 50 y/o, still fully capable of doing an intellectual job like chemistry, still able to fight, but past the age of having a lot of boyfriends and girlfriends? Do they take to mother and grandmother roles, where they're supposedly honored for traditional roles maintaining the home? Maybe their goal is to get pregnant by some high-ranking person.
My point in this depressing line of thinking is that I understood how the men desired to seize power through violence, but I don't understand what Kirk's girlfriend was after.

Marlena is an officer in the Science department, but that does not pay well in the MU. So she considers the Chem Lab her sideline, a way in, while her real path to wealth is to be a kept woman at worst, or if possible, the full-fledged concubine of a powerful man. She achieved concubine status with Mirror Kirk, and felt rejected and tremendously threatened when Prime Kirk made excuses to get away from her:

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/kept-woman
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage

 

[Swedish Borg]

...
And it seems very sexist - Captain's woman.

Well, it's the mirror universe, everything that happens there is evil and that also damn the whole franchise because for a time the only place where homosexuality was expressed or even acknowledged WAS the MU.

The TNG team produces one episode clumsily "taking the defense of homosexuality", namely "The Outcast" but isn't it damning that in the whole episode homosexuality isn't mentioned or even alluded to ONCE and males and females are described by stereotypes!!!!

That's one more reason why I don't like the MU.

 

[Methuselah Flint]

Well, it's the mirror universe, everything that happens there is evil and that also damn the whole franchise because for a time the only place where homosexuality was expressed or even acknowledged WAS the MU.

The TNG team produces one episode clumsily "taking the defense of homosexuality", namely "The Outcast" but isn't it damning that in the whole episode homosexuality isn't mentioned or even alluded to ONCE and males and females are described by stereotypes!!!!

That's one more reason why I don't like the MU.

If heterosexual Riker had fallen for one of a J' Naii who was leaning toward male rather than female, it would have been more interesting.

 

[Swedish Borg]

If heterosexual Riker had fallen for one of a J' Naii who was leaning toward male rather than female, it would have been more interesting.

And totally unthinkable given the writing staff's state of mind back then...

 

[Mytran]

Heck, they wouldn't even go with Frakes' suggestion and cast a male for Soren (to better emphasise the allegory they were going for)

 

[Dukhat]

That's a good idea, and I don't deduct points for contradicting the spinoffs. But regarding the mechanics of the MU exchange, I think everybody is missing the mark. Notice (as implied above) that in a world where everybody behaves differently and follows different rules, the same individuals would not meet and marry, and the same children would not be conceived and born, to say nothing of grow up to have matching careers aboard the Enterprise.

I believe the only way "Mirror, Mirror" can work is if the magnetic storm, combined with the transporter beam, actually created the mirror universe in that instant. And it doesn't have to be a whole universe (that takes a lot of energy), it just has to be the Halkins and the Enterprise, while the distant stars they see are just instantly-created light reaching them, not from actual MU stars. There's only this bubble in another dimension, not a whole universe.

The MU is like a damaged, imperfect photocopy: flashed into existence, and bearing too strong a resemblance to the real universe it was struck from, to be anything but a copy. That's why the same individuals exist, and why they were beaming up at the same instant, and either fit into each other's clothes or traded their minds. They couldn't not fit.

This also means that when the "doorway" is closing between the two universes, that's that countdown for the MU to vanish from existence completely. It can't be permanent because it's just a fragment, a bubble, that was copied into being by a magnetic storm. The evil characters' heads are full of instantly-created "memories," but none of their prior lives really happened.

The spinoff series get it wrong completely, daring to suggest that wildly different events in the MU 23rd century would somehow lead parents to conceive and raise persons who perfectly match the spinoff prime-universe characters in the 24th century. That goes beyond "anything can happen" sci-fi (Gary Mitchell, Trelane), and into the realm of self-contradictory nonsense. In my view.

I once had a theory (which has since been rendered moot by the MU sequels in DS9, ENT and DSC) that the only way the scenario could possibly have worked logically is if the crew weren't actually transported to an alternate universe, but were in fact shown an elaborate projection created by the Halkans to reinforce the Halkan leader's concerns that the Federation might one day change from being benevolent to being exploitative. The Halkans, like the Organians, had more going on than their initial appearance would have us believe. I found it highly coincidental that right after the leader voices his concerns, the storm appears and transports everyone into a situation exactly like what the Halkans described, right down to Kirk being put into a position where he must destroy the alt-Halkans' planet under orders, or be relieved of his command (or even his life.) The alt-Halkans seem to be exactly the same as the prime Halkans; the only difference is the situation Kirk is being put into in regards to his decisions about the Halkan planet, and the aftermath of that decision in this skewed reality.

 

[Swedish Borg]

I once had a theory (which has since been rendered moot by the MU sequels in DS9, ENT and DSC) that the only way the scenario could possibly have worked logically is if the crew weren't actually transported to an alternate universe, but were in fact shown an elaborate projection created by the Halkans to reinforce the Halkan leader's concerns that the Federation might one day change from being benevolent to being exploitative. ...

Yes, sort of like the simulation the Dominion ran Sisko and team through, except for different goals.

 

[diankra]

You also have the evil parallel universe in the early draft of City on the Edge of Forever.

Yep, my gut feeling is that Gene Coon read that bit and thought "Cut it, it's worth an episode."

 

[diankra]

Agreed on both counts. When you read Homer's Odyssey, for instance, the impression is that this could have been written only a few years ago.

The God who sacrifices himself and revives is common to a lot of religions. Though not many mono-theistic ones.

 

[Swedish Borg]

The God who sacrifices himself and revives is common to a lot of religions. Though not many mono-theistic ones.

Yes, I can think of several.

Does Christianity qualify as monotheistic though? The Christians generally think so but is that enough? The distinction between Christ and God is not very clear, sometimes they even talk to each other which is kinda odd.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

^ You're going preposterously far off topic, and getting into areas we don't discuss on this board.

 

[Swedish Borg]

^ You're going preposterously far off topic, and getting into areas we don't discuss on this board.

Ok.

 

[Kor]

I once had a theory (which has since been rendered moot by the MU sequels in DS9, ENT and DSC) that the only way the scenario could possibly have worked logically is if the crew weren't actually transported to an alternate universe, but were in fact shown an elaborate projection created by the Halkans to reinforce the Halkan leader's concerns that the Federation might one day change from being benevolent to being exploitative. The Halkans, like the Organians, had more going on than their initial appearance would have us believe. I found it highly coincidental that right after the leader voices his concerns, the storm appears and transports everyone into a situation exactly like what the Halkans described, right down to Kirk being put into a position where he must destroy the alt-Halkans' planet under orders, or be relieved of his command (or even his life.) The alt-Halkans seem to be exactly the same as the prime Halkans; the only difference is the situation Kirk is being put into in regards to his decisions about the Halkan planet, and the aftermath of that decision in this skewed reality.

I've done mental exercises with this concept as well. And it works just fine within the context of TOS itself, ignoring the spinoffs. To me, TOS is its own standalone thing.

Could the Halkans have been testing our heroes to see if they might be worth dealing with at some point after all? We never see the Halkans again (even at the end of this episode), so we don't know if they changed their minds about the Federation.

Kor

 

[1001001]

Yes, I can think of several.

Does Christianity qualify as monotheistic though? The Christians generally think so but is that enough? The distinction between Christ and God is not very clear, sometimes they even talk to each other which is kinda odd.

Yeah, that's an interesting discussion to have, but not in this particular forum.

You could certainly start a thread in Miscellaneous if you were so inclined.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Yeah, that's an interesting discussion to have, but not in this particular forum.

You could certainly start a thread in Miscellaneous if you were so inclined.

Thank you. I will.

I'll try to avoid such digressions in the future.

 

[Swedish Borg]

I've done mental exercises with this concept as well. And it works just fine within the context of TOS itself, ignoring the spinoffs. To me, TOS is its own standalone thing.

Could the Halkans have been testing our heroes to see if they might be worth dealing with at some point after all? We never see the Halkans again (even at the end of this episode), so we don't know if they changed their minds about the Federation.

Kor

On the face of it, the Halkans look like helpless, naive, idealistic pacifists but maybe they're more than that, maybe a cousin species of the Organians... Anything's possible.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

And what are the odds in the Mirror universe they would have the same bridge crew.

If they didn't, it wouldn't be much of a mirror to the regular crew, would it?

And it seems very sexist - Captain's woman.

It's supposed to be. The Mirror Universe is not a nice place, and the Enterprise crew in the Mirror Universe are not good people.

However Uhura doesn't seem to be anyone's woman.

I never got the impression that anyone besides the Captain had a "woman" of their own. RHIP = Rank has its privileges.

I believe the only way "Mirror, Mirror" can work is if the magnetic storm, combined with the transporter beam, actually created the mirror universe in that instant. And it doesn't have to be a whole universe (that takes a lot of energy), it just has to be the Halkins and the Enterprise, while the distant stars they see are just instantly-created light reaching them, not from actual MU stars. There's only this bubble in another dimension, not a whole universe.

The MU is like a damaged, imperfect photocopy: flashed into existence, and bearing too strong a resemblance to the real universe it was struck from, to be anything but a copy. That's why the same individuals exist, and why they were beaming up at the same instant, and either fit into each other's clothes or traded their minds. They couldn't not fit.

This also means that when the "doorway" is closing between the two universes, that's that countdown for the MU to vanish from existence completely. It can't be permanent because it's just a fragment, a bubble, that was copied into being by a magnetic storm. The evil characters' heads are full of instantly-created "memories," but none of their prior lives really happened.

You're really overthinking it.

I once had a theory (which has since been rendered moot by the MU sequels in DS9, ENT and DSC) that the only way the scenario could possibly have worked logically is if the crew weren't actually transported to an alternate universe, but were in fact shown an elaborate projection created by the Halkans to reinforce the Halkan leader's concerns that the Federation might one day change from being benevolent to being exploitative. The Halkans, like the Organians, had more going on than their initial appearance would have us believe. I found it highly coincidental that right after the leader voices his concerns, the storm appears and transports everyone into a situation exactly like what the Halkans described, right down to Kirk being put into a position where he must destroy the alt-Halkans' planet under orders, or be relieved of his command (or even his life.) The alt-Halkans seem to be exactly the same as the prime Halkans; the only difference is the situation Kirk is being put into in regards to his decisions about the Halkan planet, and the aftermath of that decision in this skewed reality.

Neat theory, but again, not supposed by anything we're shown in the episode.

And the MU Halkans aren't exactly the same. They're just as peaceful, yes, but look at how haggard Tharn looks when he's on the viewscreen. He was likely tortured by Mirror-Kirk when the crew beamed down.

 

[Dukhat]

Neat theory, but again, not supposed by anything we're shown in the episode.

And the MU Halkans aren't exactly the same. They're just as peaceful, yes, but look at how haggard Tharn looks when he's on the viewscreen. He was likely tortured by Mirror-Kirk when the crew beamed down.

Well, I wasn’t implying that I thought that was the writer’s intent. It was just a pet theory of mine that’s now moot.

And I meant that the Halkans weren’t evil duplicates of their prime universe counterparts. They were pretty much exactly the same, possible torture (or the appearance thereof) notwithstanding.