Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by nafeasonto, Jan 9, 2021.
A stitch in time by Andrew Robinson.
My love is a fever longing still, but it's like a miracle, it'll go away.
'tis better to have loved, and I have loved, and so many loved me, still do.
And though you are not sentient, Mike, and do not comprehend,
I nonetheless consider you a true and valued friend.
I don't remember them holding hands. They did not kiss -- Ziyal kissed him and he did not kiss her back. They did sometimes hug, and Garak always looked varying degrees of uncomfortable during them. I'm afraid Andrew J. Robinson always portrayed Garak as being some level of uncomfortable with Ziyal's romantic feelings for him, and never portrayed him as reciprocating those feelings or as experiencing sexual attraction.
Those quotes are all about Ziyal's feelings for Garak. They don't indicate any romantic feelings from Garak.
Yeah, I always got the sense that if there was any romance there it was mostly one-sided on Ziyal's part, and that it made Garak uncomfortable. Which isn't to say things might not have gotten there (or maybe did go there off-screen), but I don't see the evidence on-screen.
Head canon isn’t representation. It’s making due with what you’re given, absolutely nothing. I’m not sure why you’re so eager to defend it and the harm it caused, especially given all the transphobia and homophobia we’ve seen in this thread alone from other Trek fans.
That's how it played to me as well. He was mostly with her because she was kind and the only other Cardassian on the station. Being with her made him feel a little bit closer to being home.
That's the impression I got. If Garak had any romantic feelings he never expressed them, either because of the fact she was Dukat's daughter and he despised his enemy or because it would expose him to the kind of emotional pain with which he didn't want to deal.
Call me weird, but I think I would actually read that.
No it wasn't. There were interracial kisses on US TV prior to Star Trek. Even UK TV had interracial kisses before Star Trek did.
Yep, that one's been debunked for years now.
Remember, this is about your original claim that all Trek characters are cis, and that sex and gender are the same. That's what I argue against, and what you keep defending.
1) That is the most platonic, sexless, leave-enough-room-for-Cardassian-Jesus handholding I've ever seen.
2) Re: the kiss. He's not kissing her back.
Check out the 0:22-0:40 mark in this video:
He holds his face still, does not press his lips back. His body language is stiff and uncomfortable, like he's taken by surprised and not into it but doesn't want to hurt her feelings. This is not two people kissing -- this is Ziyal kissing Garak and Garak wishing not to hurt her feelings. And this is from a Garak/Ziyal shipper video!!
From what I understand Awesome Possum's argument(?) is that while yes, we don't if these characters are cis they were written in a time where Trans ppl only appeared as caricatures and jokes, so it isnt that far off to say they probably aren't trans.(tho ofc headcanons are thing) Not that all Trek characters are cis.
Ziyal had stronger feelings for Elim than Garak did for her. She needed his company whereas he, well, didn't need anyone except for arguably Julian and the customers in his tailor's shop.
This is the beginning of that back-and-forward discussion:
Just like most handholding and kissing in old Trek.
Also: What an odd way to discuss things:
They had something. - They had nothing. - They kissed. - They never kissed. - Here's a picture of them kissing. - That is not a kiss.
I stand corrected.
Does any of this have an actual point?
The first line is an explanation, the second one is a comparison, the third one is an observation, followed by a summary.
Do you have any specific questions about the points that they make? Follow the citations backwards if needed.
I'll take that as a no.
I'll take your question as neither honest, serious, or relevant.
Separate names with a comma.