TFF has some great moment with the big three, but looking at that camp-out, it's hard to imagine McCoy and Spock associating without Kirk to hold them together.
McCoy's BS Treatment Of Spock
- Thread starter Starborn Dragon
- Start date
TFF has some great moment with the big three, but looking at that camp-out, it's hard to imagine McCoy and Spock associating without Kirk to hold them together.
I agree, completely, about how Kirk is the only thing that keeps Spock & McCoy "friends." I completely disagree, however, about TFF camping scenes. They're rubbish.
It did. As others have pointed out, it was "The Tholian Web", where interphasic space was turning the crew a little wonky, including McCoy. Later in that episode, McCoy even collapsed while confronting Spock on the bridge, who caught him just before Kirk appeared out-of-phase in the spacesuit. Spock wasn't as affected by it as the humans. McCoy cannot be held accountable for his actions in that episode, as they could have all been considered certifiably insane due to extenuating circumstances.
I will not repeat one of my own positive personal experiences with inter-racial relationships as, the last time I did so, I got a knee-jerk Mod infraction in the "Axanar" thread due to being hen-pecked by someone with overly-fragile sensibilities on the subject. I care not to repeat the infraction over such thin-skinned idiocy, nor will I get into details about it. Unnecessary. If you really want to know, go digging through the thread. It's still in there somewhere.
But I will say that close brother-like friendships like these three had transcended race, faith, nationality and all other socio-political firewalls that are usually imposed on us. They were all comfortable enough in their own skins to know that such friendly jibes, even of an ethnic nature, were nothing more than gestures of pure affection and contained no malice. Don't forget that Spock gave as good as he got, too.
Unless you have experienced such a relationship yourself (and I have), you would never understand how it works. While it is understandable for those unfamiliar with these characters to misinterpret McCoy's prickly and acerbic attitude towards Spock as crankiness at best, unrelenting racism at worst (through a modern 21st century filter), to think otherwise and not delve deeper into what was really going on there is to have completely missed the point of the level of their friendship. It does a disservice to how the interaction between the characters was crafted and acted.
QFT!
While in many ways TFF was a dismal failure, but it did convey the quality and depth of friendship they all had for each other in a way that was unparalleled before or since.
That movie also invented the new Beretta-like combat phasers which, IMO, were positively bad-ass!
I liken TFF to Galactica: 1980. On the whole, a horrible and wasteful venture, but possessing a small handful of uniquely superior qualities that shone out from the rest of the flotsam.
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Neelix was just a terrible character and honestly I had a hard time feeling bad that the Talaxians got assimilated. Anyway on Bones, yeah it was a racist overtone frome a modern perspective. The thing is you have to take things in a historical context, the show reflects the culture of the 1960s much worse racism was commonplace, and indeed the norm.
Starborn Dragon
Captain
Neelix was on of Star Trek's most annoying characters, but he did mature some towards the end of Voyager.
I also didn't really like Tuvok's attitude towards him either, but sometimes Neelix did bring it on himself.
Unlike Spock and McCoy.
Spock really did not deserve McCoy's treatment of him not did he really bring it on himself.
Although McCoy thinks he isn't doing anything wrong.
I also didn't really like Tuvok's attitude towards him either, but sometimes Neelix did bring it on himself.
Unlike Spock and McCoy.
Spock really did not deserve McCoy's treatment of him not did he really bring it on himself.
Although McCoy thinks he isn't doing anything wrong.
You have to admit though, Spock, often completely unprovoked, pours on the Vulcan superiority shtick mighty thick. If you go around acting like you're better than everybody else, you should expect someone might get in your shit on occasion
It's actually less respectful that Kirk just smirks or laughs it off. The "Oh, that darned Spock" routine is completely dismissive. If someone takes a position of being superior, & you are friends or have a mutual respect, you are obligated to have it out with them. There's been plenty of times Spock speaks down about humanity & looks down his nose at Humans. McCoy didn't open that can of worms, but he sure does fish with them
It's actually less respectful that Kirk just smirks or laughs it off. The "Oh, that darned Spock" routine is completely dismissive. If someone takes a position of being superior, & you are friends or have a mutual respect, you are obligated to have it out with them. There's been plenty of times Spock speaks down about humanity & looks down his nose at Humans. McCoy didn't open that can of worms, but he sure does fish with them
Starborn Dragon
Captain
I don't view those things as being superior, just making obsevatio0ns of the weaknesses of humanity. If anything, it is human beings who have the superiority complex which always comes out whenever they are criticized on anything, regardless if the criticism is a valid point or not.
Spock really wasn't trying to be superior at all, but expressing his own opinions and in psychiatric counseling, such as with marriage counseling, they encourage you to be open and honest.
But in normal American culture, you really can't be open and honest, because no matter how much tact you use, no matter how valid the observation is, any criticism will always be taken personally and people will ONLY react with anger and hostility and claim ti's not true an d tell you to shut up.
And that is something i do not understand myself.
Because people claim that honesty is the best policy, and a whole host of other things that makes things confusing when dealing with people.
American culture, and western human culture is very centric.
Bones' dissing Spock would've passed for being good-natured ribbing, perhaps, had DeForest Kelley been a better actor, I suspect. He simply could not deliver those lines as anything other than as course and crass. Had he been able to infuse some double meaning, with his inflections of tone, or even some hint of irony, it probably would've played a lot better. Instead we get this grumpy, old Man who's about to blow a gasket, shooting his mouth off. Bones' grumpiness worked much better when it was in defense of someone or in response to a situation. For example, in Journey to Babel, when the ENTERPRISE is in battle during Sarek's operation and Bones calls up to the bridge to snap at Jim to wrap it up. DeForest is reputed to have been a true Southern Gentleman and I believe that. But his acting style was as subtle as a slap from your momma's hand and this did not always serve the McCoy character.
A white Southern male arguably cast as a racist in a 1960s American television series. This, taken in conjunction with the storyline of "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield," not to mention the Kirk-Uhura kiss, makes one wonder how close to the line Roddenberry intended to skate. He was, and remains, ahead of his time.
D
Deleted 69012
Guest
Yeah, Spock tells the factual and unpleasant history of the human race. Given how often human history impacts the mission at hand, it's usually pertinent.
Sometimes, he is smug and condescending, but that neither predates nor outnumbers McCoy's jabs. Given that McCoy only has a passing familiarity with the biology of the Enterprise's first officer, his observations are rarely ever related to anything but wanting to take a shot at Spock.
To his defense, in "Menagerie" he considers Spock's integrity to be absolute and defends him to Kirk, at least when Spock isn't around to hear.
Maybe McCoy intends what he's doing as friendly ribbing, but I'm not sure how a half-Vulcan who identifies as Vulcan would be expected to understand that human dynamic. I'm currently doing a re-watch with a friend who hasn't seen TOS yet, I'll keep an eye on those two post "Operation: Annihilate!" the first time Spock becomes aware of the high regard McCoy holds for him.
I'd never thought about it that way. I really like it.
But Spock tries unhealthily hard to live as a Vulcan. Reporting people being mean to you--no matter how legitimate--might seem too human for him, no matter how he actually feels about it.
Yeah, Spock tells the factual and unpleasant history of the human race. Given how often human history impacts the mission at hand, it's usually pertinent.
Sometimes, he is smug and condescending, but that neither predates nor outnumbers McCoy's jabs. Given that McCoy only has a passing familiarity with the biology of the Enterprise's first officer, his observations are rarely ever related to anything but wanting to take a shot at Spock.
To his defense, in "Menagerie" he considers Spock's integrity to be absolute and defends him to Kirk, at least when Spock isn't around to hear.
Maybe McCoy intends what he's doing as friendly ribbing, but I'm not sure how a half-Vulcan who identifies as Vulcan would be expected to understand that human dynamic. I'm currently doing a re-watch with a friend who hasn't seen TOS yet, I'll keep an eye on those two post "Operation: Annihilate!" the first time Spock becomes aware of the high regard McCoy holds for him.
I'd never thought about it that way. I really like it.
But Spock tries unhealthily hard to live as a Vulcan. Reporting people being mean to you--no matter how legitimate--might seem too human for him, no matter how he actually feels about it.
Excellent points; thank you all!
?
Really, when?
BTW, not picking on you Nightdiamond, just asking.
I don't remember anything like that except possibly Uhura singing about Mr. Spock's cold heart while he sat there playing the music and half smiling. Hardly a pot shot.
And "all you have to do is change the words to these and it's this" is the most ridiculous argument I've seen recently.
Spock constantly mocked McCoy's medical abilities to the point he was comparing him to a witch doctor that dances around shaking beads to chase away diseases. Spock's superiority complex is apparent right from the 2nd pilot, "Ah, one of your Earth emotions"
It's like we see in many threads, perception is in the eye of the beholder and many people can look at exactly the same thing and see many different things.
Rewatch "The Galileo Seven", Marsden. Several of them, especially Boma, are outright disrespectful directly to Spock's face. I imagine if Spock were human, he would have put Boma and McCoy on report once they got back to the ship.
Exactly. McCoy's jabs at Spock were always more of a friendly sort at best, frustration at worst. From what I saw from Boma, not only were the things he said thoroughly rude and disrespectful, they were flirting close to racism as well.
This was also blatantly true of Styles' attitude towards Spock in "Balance of Terror". It was veiled racism in the beginning, but totally out in the open once they realized who and what the Romulans were and their apparent relation to Vulcans.
This was also blatantly true of Styles' attitude towards Spock in "Balance of Terror". It was veiled racism in the beginning, but totally out in the open once they realized who and what the Romulans were and their apparent relation to Vulcans.
Thank you. That's all I was saying above. Spock's proclamation of human inferiority is well displayed. Humanity being lesser to him because of their allowance of emotion is a dang staple of the show, where Spock is concerned, (even within himself the human side is lesser to him, until he ages some & comes to value it)
It's a legitimate bone of contention with Bones, (no pun intended. lol) and he is not a diplomatic man. If he has issue with your ideologies, he attacks both them & you for having them & even just you because you are an affront to him. Is it right? Not really, but it makes sense.
Plus, as others have said, it's more of a show than sincere. The actual character is deliberately choosing to play the foil to Spock, by being contrary, & emotional & crass. It is possible to respect & ever care for someone, & still disagree with or disapprove of them in some way
I like the dynamic. They are both equally stubborn in polar opposite ways
Think about it though... How well would YOU respond to a seemingly heartless, unapologetic man, who viewed your feelings as a weakness or insignificant.
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