Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Christopher]

To me, the central issue with the movie was not the slop CGI, or even the dialogue. It was that Scott being the protagonist of the movie felt a bit...random. Like Marvel Studios had a dartboard, and decided that they needed another Ant-Man movie and a Kang introduction, so they just put them in the same movie.

That's just the sort of thing that happens in ongoing franchises sometimes, when the timings of things align in certain ways. It's no weirder than Darkseid and the New Gods making their debut in Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen.

The best villains are a dark mirror of some aspect of the hero, riffing off of them in some aspect thematically, or else have personal history with the hero. Kang has essentially no relation to Scott except he happened to be the Avenger that showed up.

But that's why it was relevant to Scott's character arc. The story was about Scott struggling with his reputation as a major hero and questioning whether he was worthy of it, so pitting him against a villain who considered him inconsequential was the way to illustrate that.

Also, people tend to overlook that the film wasn't called Scott Lang, it was called Ant-Man and the Wasp -- and there are two people each that use those championyms. The movie was as much about Janet and Hank as it was about Scott, and Kang was critical to Janet and Hank's story because he was the reason Janet stayed lost in the Quantum Realm for so long, a threat so great that she chose to strand herself there in order to keep him contained.

Adding to this, Scott had no character arc to speak of in the movie.

Because, again, it wasn't exclusively his movie. He had two whole movies centered on him. The advantage of a series is that you can choose different focuses in different installments. This was Hank and Janet's turn in the spotlight.

What this is all very similar to is Captain America: Brave New World. There is no reasonable argument why Sam Wilson should have had the starring role in an Incredible Hulk sequel. Okay, I realize Universal may have been upset if Bruce Banner was in here, but...maybe don't make a Hulk sequel then?

Well, yeah, it was a sequel to TIH, but it was a sequel that focused on Thaddeus Ross, and Ross was a member of the government, so it made sense that a story about him becoming Red Hulk would involve Captain America.

I don't find much similarity between the two films. Quantumania was about introducing new characters and elements into the MCU. The flaw with CA:BNW is that it felt too much like it was just tying up various loose ends from earlier movies.

 

[DigificWriter]

You forgot Love and Thunder.

I said best, not worst.

 

[theenglish]

I said best, not worst.

I guess I misunderstood your post.

 

[DigificWriter]

I stumbled upon something that is going to bug me until/unless I post about it, so I'm posting about it.

The official timeline placement for Secret Invasion is screwed up. Apparently, it's supposed to take place in 2026, but it literally can't because its events have to take place before the events of The Marvels, which immediately follow the events of Ms. Marvel (which is set in the Fall of 2025).

Because Secret Invasion literally cannot take place when the official timeline says that it does, everything that is subsequent to its events gets thrown off by the discrepancy.

Note: this is not an invitation to 'dunk' on Secret Invasion qualitatively; it's an invitation to talk about the apparent continuity discrepancy of when it's said to be set relative to when it has to actually be set and how said discrepancy can be reconciled.

 

[Jayson1]

I stumbled upon something that is going to bug me until/unless I post about it, so I'm posting about it.

The official timeline placement for Secret Invasion is screwed up. Apparently, it's supposed to take place in 2026, but it literally can't because its events have to take place before the events of The Marvels, which immediately follow the events of Ms. Marvel (which is set in the Fall of 2025).

Because Secret Invasion literally cannot take place when the official timeline says that it does, everything that is subsequent to its events gets thrown off by the discrepancy.

Note: this is not an invitation to 'dunk' on Secret Invasion qualitatively; it's an invitation to talk about the apparent continuity discrepancy of when it's said to be set relative to when it has to actually be set and how said discrepancy can be reconciled.

Why can't Secret Invasion happen after The Marvels? Also what if Nick Fury in The Marvels is a Skrull. Real sad Fury is still with the other Skrulls on their ship after the invents of Secret Invasion?

 

[eschaton]

I stumbled upon something that is going to bug me until/unless I post about it, so I'm posting about it.

The official timeline placement for Secret Invasion is screwed up. Apparently, it's supposed to take place in 2026, but it literally can't because its events have to take place before the events of The Marvels, which immediately follow the events of Ms. Marvel (which is set in the Fall of 2025).

Because Secret Invasion literally cannot take place when the official timeline says that it does, everything that is subsequent to its events gets thrown off by the discrepancy.

Note: this is not an invitation to 'dunk' on Secret Invasion qualitatively; it's an invitation to talk about the apparent continuity discrepancy of when it's said to be set relative to when it has to actually be set and how said discrepancy can be reconciled.

I might be missing something, but considering The Marvels utterly ignored the events of Secret Invasion, wouldn't putting it afterwards result in fewer continuity issues?

Obviously, it has to occur before BNW anf Thunderbolts, due to electoral cycles, but otherwise, I don't see how it matters.

 

[Christopher]

I might be missing something, but considering The Marvels utterly ignored the events of Secret Invasion, wouldn't putting it afterwards result in fewer continuity issues?

No, because Secret Invasion claims that Nick Fury failed to find the Skrull a new homeworld, but The Marvels shows the Skrull on their new homeworld. So the only way it could be reconciled is if SI came first and a new homeworld was found between the two, but the timing would have to be really tight.

I think we'd all be better off if Marvel just declared Secret Invasion a "What If...?" series or something.

 

[oktay]

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[The Nth Doctor]

No, because Secret Invasion claims that Nick Fury failed to find the Skrull a new homeworld, but The Marvels shows the Skrull on their new homeworld. So the only way it could be reconciled is if SI came first and a new homeworld was found between the two, but the timing would have to be really tight.

I think we'd all be better off if Marvel just declared Secret Invasion a "What If...?" series or something.

Precisely this.

While I appreciate the sentiment of trying to avoid dunking on the series while trying to reconcile this error, the fact that I found the show to be so abysmal with only a few redeeming qualities means I have zero interest in trying to find a solution. Especially since that issue is far from the only contradicting problem the series created. Instead, I find it much easier to just ignore the series entirely, which is saying a lot considering how much I defend most of the MCU.

 

[eschaton]

No, because Secret Invasion claims that Nick Fury failed to find the Skrull a new homeworld, but The Marvels shows the Skrull on their new homeworld. So the only way it could be reconciled is if SI came first and a new homeworld was found between the two, but the timing would have to be really tight.

I think we'd all be better off if Marvel just declared Secret Invasion a "What If...?" series or something.

Ahh. My recollection was Tarnax was just a colony with some Skrulls on it, not the new Skrull homeworld.

Aligning the MCU canon presidents to real world terms also makes little sense, come to think of it. I can excuse Bucky since it might be a special election, but how does Ross become elected president in 2026?

 

[Christopher]

Ahh. My recollection was Tarnax was just a colony with some Skrulls on it, not the new Skrull homeworld.

If it's a world that Skrulls can live on, I see no reason it couldn't be the new Skrull homeworld. They wouldn't have been picky.

Aligning the MCU canon presidents to real world terms also makes little sense, come to think of it. I can excuse Bucky since it might be a special election, but how does Ross become elected president in 2026?

Maybe it's in the same universe as The West Wing, where the election cycle was also two years off from reality.

(Which would fit with the fan theory that the Secret Service agent Clark Gregg played in TWW was Coulson undercover.)

 

[Turtletrekker]

Ahh. My recollection was Tarnax was just a colony with some Skrulls on it, not the new Skrull homeworld.

Aligning the MCU canon presidents to real world terms also makes little sense, come to think of it. I can excuse Bucky since it might be a special election, but how does Ross become elected president in 2026?

My head canon is that post-blip, which took place in early 2018 and no doubt wiped out a minimum of 50% of the government, special elections were held In late 2018 to compensate.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Captain America: The First Avenger never fails to be great. It got the formula right from the start and most MCU movies since have failed to match it.

Indeed regarding the failure of most MCU movie to match that, but I believe Captain America: The Winter Soldier remains the greatest of all MCU movies and a stellar representation of the best of the source characters. Only The Hulk and the first Cap movie approach that level.

To me, the central issue with the movie was not the slop CGI, or even the dialogue. It was that Scott being the protagonist of the movie felt a bit...random. Like Marvel Studios had a dartboard, and decided that they needed another Ant-Man movie and a Kang introduction, so they just put them in the same movie.

Interesting, and yes, random is a good way of describing that Ant-Man film and the character's involvement in the plot.

The best villains are a dark mirror of some aspect of the hero, riffing off of them in some aspect thematically, or else have personal history with the hero.

The very reason the Red Skull and Bucky were great antagonists for Captain America; the former being the totalitarian / eugenicist contrast to freedom fighting, value-seen-in-all-people Rogers, and the latter being the mirrored nightmare of himself if he had been altered under the same conditions (Hydra, et al.).

Kang has essentially no relation to Scott except he happened to be the Avenger that showed up. I guess there's an argument that the whole "quantum realm" aspect required Scott to be the protagonist, but that was really an excuse to have a Kang in a pretty inaccessible realm. The area was so totally cut off from any sense of the shrinking/growing scale of the previous Ant-Man movies that it just as easily could have been somewhere in space, with one of the more "cosmic" Avengers (Captain Marvel, Thor, the Guardians) playing the same role.

Solid points. A Captain Marvel sequel would have been fascinating if she were up against Kang, instead of the film dropped on audiences.

 

[DigificWriter]

Following up on my last post, I was able to work out how, specifically, Ms. Marvel, Secret Invasion, and The Marvels have to work relative to each other and also to Ironheart.

Because The Marvels happens immediately subsequent to Ms. Marvel and dates itself through dialogue to 2025, Ms. Marvel and Secret Invasion have to be happening at least partially concurrent to each other over a maximum period of 10 days (most likely between the 21st and 30th of September), which places the events of The Marvels as occurring either before or possibly concurrent with the events of Ironheart depending on exactly when in October the events of the latter occur.

The Marvels and Secret Invasion being internally dated to Fall 2025 also dominos into Thor: Love and Thunder, The GotG Holiday Special, and Werewolf By Night, putting the correct timeline order of things as follows:
Ms. Marvel
Secret Invasion
The Marvels
Ironheart
Thor: Love and Thunder
The GotG Holiday Special
Werewolf By Night

Additionally, correctly placing the events of Secret Invasion - specifically - in Fall 2025 makes it actually more plausible for Ross to have become President in 2026 (and shifts the setting of both Captain America: Brace New World and Thunderbolts/The New Avengers) because it provides a potential reason for Ritson's term being cut short and a potential path for Ross to ascend to the Presidency through the 25th Amendment if he were part of Ritson's Cabinet.

 

[theenglish]

I stumbled upon something that is going to bug me until/unless I post about it, so I'm posting about it.

The official timeline placement for Secret Invasion is screwed up. Apparently, it's supposed to take place in 2026, but it literally can't because its events have to take place before the events of The Marvels, which immediately follow the events of Ms. Marvel (which is set in the Fall of 2025).

Because Secret Invasion literally cannot take place when the official timeline says that it does, everything that is subsequent to its events gets thrown off by the discrepancy.

Note: this is not an invitation to 'dunk' on Secret Invasion qualitatively; it's an invitation to talk about the apparent continuity discrepancy of when it's said to be set relative to when it has to actually be set and how said discrepancy can be reconciled.

What happens if Secret Invasion takes place after The Marvels? I guess i think there was something in the first episode about Fury being missing?
But Secret Invasion is also messed up anyway because of the Skrull Homeworld in The Marvels. This pissed me off because it could be so easily explained away by a statement that the Skrulls on that world are a different faction than the ones on Earth.

 

[DigificWriter]

There's no mention made in The Marvels about Fury being freshly returned to Earth, whereas there is such a mention in Secret Invasion.

It isn't difficult to make the narrative leap that the Skrulls in Secret Invasion either weren't welcomed to the new Skrull homeworld that Carol helped them find or did something to get exiled.

 

[ClayinCA]

I think we'd all be better off if Marvel just declared Secret Invasion a "What If...?" series or something.

This seems like the best and most elegant solution to me. Plus it gets us Maria Hill back in the MCU.

 

[Christopher]

This seems like the best and most elegant solution to me. Plus it gets us Maria Hill back in the MCU.

Yes, that was a major part of my thinking.

 

[DigificWriter]

Believing that Secret Invasion is of poor quality isn't a reason to ignore its Canonicity.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Believing that Secret Invasion is of poor quality isn't a reason to ignore its Canonicity.

It is if one wants to. It's fine if you don't want to, but it's also fine if we want to.