Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Rich Watson]

I'm looking forward to GOTG3 and booked my tickets as soon as they went on sale, but the box office tracking based on pre-sales started low and has only gotten lower as we get closer to the release date.

If this ends up as another Ant-Man I think Disney are going to have to take a hard look at their future plans because I sure don't see Cap 4, Blade or Thunderbolts getting anywhere near a billion at the box office either.

 

[Commander Troi]

I'm looking forward to GOTG3 and booked my tickets as soon as they went on sale, but the box office tracking based on pre-sales started low and has only gotten lower as we get closer to the release date.

If this ends up as another Ant-Man I think Disney are going to have to take a hard look at their future plans because I sure don't see Cap 4, Blade or Thunderbolts getting anywhere near a billion at the box office either.

I think a lot of people just don't want to go to a theater when they can wait and see movies at home.

BTW, if you haven't watched Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur, all 16 eps are up on Disney+. The show is clever and funny and has great music. It fills me with delight.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

BTW, if you haven't watched Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur, all 16 eps are up on Disney+. The show is clever and funny and has great music. It fills me with delight.

I keep meaning to watch that show. It looks so much damn fun.

 

[Starscream2112]

I'm looking forward to GOTG3 and booked my tickets as soon as they went on sale, but the box office tracking based on pre-sales started low and has only gotten lower as we get closer to the release date.

If this ends up as another Ant-Man I think Disney are going to have to take a hard look at their future plans because I sure don't see Cap 4, Blade or Thunderbolts getting anywhere near a billion at the box office either.

Well, Cap 4 and Thunderbolts are already filming so I think they are safe. Not sure when Blade starts to shoot. I just hope Deadpool 3 stays on schedule.

 

[JD]

I'm looking forward to GOTG3 and booked my tickets as soon as they went on sale, but the box office tracking based on pre-sales started low and has only gotten lower as we get closer to the release date.

If this ends up as another Ant-Man I think Disney are going to have to take a hard look at their future plans because I sure don't see Cap 4, Blade or Thunderbolts getting anywhere near a billion at the box office either.

Do that many people really pre-order their movie tickets? I ordered tickets online a few hours before the movie a couple times, but stopped once I realized we were almost literally getting charged the price of another whole ticket in extra fees.

 

[Starscream2112]

Do that many people really pre-order their movie tickets? I ordered tickets online a few hours before the movie a couple times, but stopped once I realized we were almost literally getting charged the price of another whole ticket in extra fees.

I have never preordered tickets. I never know if I have time to see a movies until that day. Someone in the family usually says "anybody want to see a movie" Then we start seeing what is playing and what seats are available.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Do that many people really pre-order their movie tickets? I ordered tickets online a few hours before the movie a couple times, but stopped once I realized we were almost literally getting charged the price of another whole ticket in extra fees.

The only time I've ever pre-ordered film tickets were opening night releases for event films such as Lord of the Rings and Star Wars. I don't think I even did that with Infinity War or Endgame (although that was mostly because I watched them at the first afternoon showing because I was able to).

Pre-release sales are hardly indictive of how a film may or may not do unless it's a massive amount. But the lack thereof and then say it and the entirety of the franchise is in trouble is doom mongering.

Yes, Quantumania did underperform and there are a lot of reasons that happened, and I say that as someone who knows he's in the minority about enjoying most of it. But that doesn't mean squat for the rest of the franchise for one simple reason: Different writers, different directors, different characters, different styles.

One of the reasons the MCU has been such a success is how it has dabbled with various different genres with many of its films. Guardians of the Galaxy is vastly different from The Winter Soldier and both are vastly differently from Endgame and No Way Home, but they're all beloved for different reasons.

I'm not at all worried. Especially since Vol. 3 is getting a lot of early review buzz and The Marvels is getting a lot of people excited for many reasons.

 

[JD]

The other thing to consider with Quantumania is that I think the Ant-Man movies have pretty consistently been at the bottom of the MCU box office, and the Guardians movies have done a lot better.

 

[theenglish]

Luis should have been in the film.

 

[Anwar]

I'm looking forward to GOTG3 and booked my tickets as soon as they went on sale, but the box office tracking based on pre-sales started low and has only gotten lower as we get closer to the release date.

If this ends up as another Ant-Man I think Disney are going to have to take a hard look at their future plans because I sure don't see Cap 4, Blade or Thunderbolts getting anywhere near a billion at the box office either.

It's not like the MCU makes nothing but Billion Dollar Movies...

 

[Mage]

So, one thing has occurred to me...

...Why was there backlash to Sam taking over and Cap and Riri potentially being an Iron Man inspired character but no one has complained about Yelena becoming the new Black Widow?

I'd very much prefer not to believe it's because she's the same gender and skin color as Natasha...

For some, most certainly. I never had an issue with Sam being Cap. I can't personally say too much yet on Riri, but I just really didn't like her character in Wakanda Forever. And her suit looks like a Power Ranger. That's what I dislike so far, but perhaps I'll like her more after her own show has aired.
So yeah, for me personally skin color has nothing to do with disliking Riri. But unfortunately, for a lot of people it does. Even if they aren't racist at the core, they feel that white characters are being replaced by black characters. The fact that that line of thinking even pops up in their minds is.... mindboggling.

 

[theenglish]

I had a big problem with Riri being in the movie at all--she was there as a promo for her character and did nothing to service the story itself. It was one of two problems I had in the movie (the other being Freeman and Louis-Dreyfuss' story) which I really enjoyed overall.

 

[Reverend]

I think we're talking about two different things here; there's the people the complained that she was being included at all in anything and how dare she steal Stark's legacy (whatever that means) before anything had come out, sight unseen, and there's the people that criticised the implementation of said character in that specific movie.

The later is fair critique, the former is . . . well I think we all know exactly what it is.

For the record; I was indifferent about her role in WF. Felt like they were trying to replicate Spider-Man's debut in Civil War, but it missed the mark and felt kinda forced. Also, probably the wrong model to imitate, since that example had the added benefit of the audience already knowing who Peter Parker is. Overall though; not detrimental or egregious. The actor was charming enough for what she was working with. Will reserve further judgment until I see her solo project.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I still maintain that Riri was absolutely necessary to the story of Wakanda Forever and far better implemented in that story than Peter in Civil War.

IMO, without Riri there to give Shuri an outsider she can connect to and feel a genuine kinship with, Shuri's character arc in the film would completely fall apart. And also, obviously, the entire story structure of the film is completely dependent on there being an outside scientist with a target on their back for the Wakandans to protect. And while that scientist could theoretically have been someone else, there's no logical reason whatsoever to believe any other person in that role would have made the movie any better. Indeed, being able to slot Riri into the final fight is arguably much better than having a non-combatant scientist who just has to disappear from the narrative in the third act.

Having said that, anyone who disagrees for reasons actually based on the movie, story, characterization, etc, is absolutely engaged in fair criticism, unlike the people who just hate the idea of Riri being allowed to exist/have an 'iron man' suit.

 

[Reverend]

I still maintain that Riri was absolutely necessary to the story of Wakanda Forever and far better implemented in that story than Peter in Civil War.

I disagree. Peter worked in that movie precisely because he *wasn't* important to the plot. The stakes weren't tied up in him in particular. He was just there as a fun addition, so if anything didn't work: no harm, no foul. Hell, they could have straight up deleted all of his footage and the movie would still work.

With Riri, yes she was important to the plot but only in a purely contrived way. They didn't really need her to be the Macguffin specifically, it could have been anything. Hell, there didn't even have to be a Macguffin at all. By making that creative choice though, suddenly she's tied up in a plot that doesn't really have anything to do with her as a character. It's a movie about grief, family trauma, and cultural heritage, and Riri just felt out of place. Mostly hanging around with nothing to do, while as a result we as an audience struggle to even get a handle on who she is as a person beyond the surface level.

With Peter; including the post credits, he got exactly three scenes! He was in, he was out. They didn't try and squeeze him into the Zemo plot, or the Cap & Bucky of it all. He was just there to add some colour to what would be an otherwise very grim action sequence. They didn't need to address anything about his character because he's Spider-Man. Everyone already has at least a passing knowledge of what he's all about. Riri is at a distinct disadvantage in that regard. And yet they still managed to give Peter's story some resonance with Stark's character arc with just one line (the "avoid using the words 'great power' at all costs line".) Which again, they can get away with that kind of brevity because: Spider-Man.

To take another example of a character introduction in Civil War that worked: Black Panther! Why did it work? Because his story was thematically tied to Zemo's; a man seeking vengeance. Also helps that he was quasi-antagonistic for the most part, had his own agency, and he had a distinct character arc.

 

[Christopher]

I had a big problem with Riri being in the movie at all--she was there as a promo for her character and did nothing to service the story itself.

On the contrary -- the story wouldn't have happened at all without her. The only reason Shuri and Namor came into conflict was because Namor intended to kill the inventor of the technology, and Shuri stood against him when she discovered the inventor was an innocent young girl who was a mirror to herself, the very kind of young person that T'Challa opened Wakanda to the world in order to help. Riri embodies T'Challa's legacy, the things he wanted Wakanda and Black Panther to stand for and fight for. She gives the story its meaning, beyond the superficial level of plot and events.

A character doesn't have to perform obvious onscreen actions to be vital to a story. Look at Orson Welles's The Third Man. Welles's character, Harry Lime, only appears in a few scenes of the movie, and he's actually believed to be dead for much of it. But everything that the other characters do is about him, reacting to him, driven by his influence. He's the most important character despite his minimal screen time, despite being more reacted to than taking action.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I disagree. Peter worked in that movie precisely because he *wasn't* important to the plot. The stakes weren't tied up in him in particular. He was just there as a fun addition, so if anything didn't work: no harm, no foul. Hell, they could have straight up deleted all of his footage and the movie would still work.

With Riri, yes she was important to the plot but only in a purely contrived way. They didn't really need her to be the Macguffin specifically, it could have been anything. Hell, there didn't even have to be a Macguffin at all. By making that creative choice though, suddenly she's tied up in a plot that doesn't really have anything to do with her as a character. It's a movie about grief, family trauma, and cultural heritage, and Riri just felt out of place. Mostly hanging around with nothing to do, while as a result we as an audience struggle to even get a handle on who she is as a person beyond the surface level.

With Peter; including the post credits, he got exactly three scenes! He was in, he was out. They didn't try and squeeze him into the Zemo plot, or the Cap & Bucky of it all. He was just there to add some colour to what would be an otherwise very grim action sequence. They didn't need to address anything about his character because he's Spider-Man. Everyone already has at least a passing knowledge of what he's all about. Riri is at a distinct disadvantage in that regard. And yet they still managed to give Peter's story some resonance with Stark's character arc with just one line (the "avoid using the words 'great power' at all costs line".) Which again, they can get away with that kind of brevity because: Spider-Man.

To take another example of a character introduction in Civil War that worked: Black Panther! Why did it work? Because his story was thematically tied to Zemo's; a man seeking vengeance. Also helps that he was quasi-antagonistic for the most part, had his own agency, and he had a distinct character arc.

Arguing there didn't have to be a macguffin at all is just saying that they could have chosen to make a completely different movie. Which, obviously, yes that's true.

This story, though, absolutely had to have a macguffin and they had to be alive and innocent. The story doesn't exist without that element. It didn't necessarily have to be Riri, but it did have to be someone, and Riri is a good choice for a whole lot of reasons that go well beyond the need for a macguffin. She does have a unique relationship with Shuri (the main character), she does have an important effect on Shuri's character arc (which is basically the whole point of the film), and she is symbolically tied into the idea of Wakanda just as much as T'Challa (in Civil War) is to the idea of vengeance. As Christopher said, she's exactly what T'Challa was trying to achieve with his Kingship.

As for Peter, being able to remove him from the movie entirely doesn't make him better implemented. I actually do think you can't quite do that properly because I think he also has an unmissable effect on Tony's character arc, but his presence is very barebones and his importance is kind of blink and you miss it so that's not in any way 'better' by any definition I can agree with.

 

[Reverend]

Nope. The "person who invented a vibranium detector" Macguffin wasn't intrinsic to the plot and removing it wouldn't make it "a whole other movie" in the slightest. Indeed, it's a fairly silly Macguffin anyway since it hardly seems credible that the US government wouldn't make damn sure they can reverse engineer and reproduce the thing before deploying it. The idea that only one person could build it is a bit of a stretch. This was exactly the reason why Tony wouldn't let anyone else look at his arc reactor in IM1. It's a lot easier to copy something than invent it. They had their hands on it, so you can bet they made a copy, or at least had enough of an idea of the underlying principles to make another one.
Anyway; none of this matters much to Shuri's story, Namor's or Okoye's. MacGuffins by their very nature are almost always irrelevant to the plot, existing only to propel the action forwards. Something that can also be done one of any number of ways.

Namor didn't really need her, he needed Wakanda's cooperation in dealing with the surface nations, or at least their non-involvement. Whether the surface nations can find vibranium on their own or not at that point is academic. The cat's out of the bag the moment his people openly attacked. After that it's just a matter of time before their city could be located. Riri's disposition isn't what resolved the conflict, it was Wakanda's determination to stand as a bulwark against either side's aggression against the other.

Just to be clear: I'm not advocated that Riri shouldn't have been in the movie, just that I don't think her inclusion was well integrated. I'd have either reduced her role to about the same as Peter's in Civil War (a fun cameo late in the second act as a tease for more to come), or saved her for her own story that could give her the space and attention she deserves. As it stands she just felt useless and in the way, sucking up screen time that would be better spent on other characters.

I do wonder if the original idea was for her show to come out before this movie (ala Ms Marvel) since that might have made a little more sense.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

So, one thing has occurred to me...

...Why was there backlash to Sam taking over and Cap and Riri potentially being an Iron Man inspired character but no one has complained about Yelena becoming the new Black Widow?

I'd very much prefer not to believe it's because she's the same gender and skin color as Natasha...

Racism is one of the longest-lived forms of pure evil, interwoven in every category of society, including so-called "geek culture", where that realm has witnessed it used as a cudgel by everyone from the random audience member, to journalists and social media hosts. Marvel as a company has never been free of racists among their fanbase; some comic readers complained about the creation of Black Goliath, resented Sam Wilson becoming Cap, Nick Fury becoming a black man, etc. Some have invested their White Identity Grievances into...comic book characters...to the degree that said characters "must" remain white icons, or the aggrieved feel their history / legacy is being "stolen"--given to "undeserving" races and/or individuals. That kind of nut-less whining reared its head with the premiere of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, with certain people ranting that they will "never" accept Sam as Captain America, so they re preparing themselves to hurl new tirades at black people, Marvel, "woke culture" and anyone else who "gave" their icon to the "undeserving" and "unqualified" black character.

I think for a lot of the criticisms that is definitely what constitutes the greatest amount. I remember how much hate John Stewart got when they decided on him for the Justice League cartoon.

Indeed, and in one episode of Justice League Unlimited ("The Once and Future Thing Part Two: Time, Warped") where an alternate reality suddenly transformed Stewart into Jordan, some of the DEAU fans howled with delight over the brief appearance of the "real" Green Lantern", adding more fuel to their flaming rage over Stewart. This also extended to Stewart's romance with Hawkgirl, where more than a few ranting viewers argued that the two did not "belong together" for barely specified reasons.

I had a big problem with Riri being in the movie at all--she was there as a promo for her character and did nothing to service the story itself. It was one of two problems I had in the movie (the other being Freeman and Louis-Dreyfuss' story) which I really enjoyed overall.

Interesting.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Two pieces of news...

James Gunn confirmed on his Instagram yesterday that Vol. 3 will have two post-credit scenes (expand the replies after papaj_419's comment).

Secondly, Agatha: Coven of Chaos will feature musical numbers, per Patti LuPone via the Hollywood Reporter:

What can you tell me about the Marvel show you’re making, Agatha: Coven of Chaos?

We are a coven led by the great Kathryn Hahn. I am a 450-year-old Sicilian witch and my power is divination.

Do the witches sing?

They do. Our lead singer is Kathryn. I’m singing backup, and the songs have been written by Kristen and Bobby Lopez.

What’s it like to sing backup?

I said, “Listen, I don’t harmonize. I’ve always been a soprano. I’ve always been on the top line.” But it’s just been great fun. There’s no CGI either. What I am seeing on this show is craft.​