Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Christopher]

There is no 'should' about it.

I was talking about it from the creator's perspective. You want to create something worthwhile enough that it makes people think and wonder and question, that it makes them care. If they just absorb it and have no reaction, then you've failed as a creator. Unless you're just a hack in it for the paycheck, but I don't think that's true of the MCU's creators.

The point is that if a work of fiction inspires people in the audience -- not all people, of course, but a number of them -- to ask questions and offer critiques and analyze and deconstruct and hypothesize about the work, that's not an attack on the work that needs to be shut down; it's proof that the work succeeded in provoking a response. And that's the artist's goal. Even if a lot of that response is critical or negative, that still means you got a reaction, that you made them care. That's better than evoking no strong reaction either way.

 

[Mage]

I was talking about it from the creator's perspective. You want to create something worthwhile enough that it makes people think and wonder and question, that it makes them care. If they just absorb it and have no reaction, then you've failed as a creator. Unless you're just a hack in it for the paycheck, but I don't think that's true of the MCU's creators.

The point is that if a work of fiction inspires people in the audience -- not all people, of course, but a number of them -- to ask questions and offer critiques and analyze and deconstruct and hypothesize about the work, that's not an attack on the work that needs to be shut down; it's proof that the work succeeded in provoking a response. And that's the artist's goal. Even if a lot of that response is critical or negative, that still means you got a reaction, that you made them care. That's better than evoking no strong reaction either way.

If the response is 'I had a fun time at the movies or on my couch and I have a smile on my face from the big bombs and shiny SFX', is that still an ok response? It might not be the artist's goal, but as with any form of self-expression through form of media, be it words, film, music, painting..... artistic goal goes out the window, and the person enjoying the expression gives it meaning. Maybe the people behind Civil War wanted the viewers to think about socio-political ramifications of intervention on a global scale by groups of people using inherently desctuctive means to achieve a long term positive outcome.
However, some people might just come out thinking 'hell, that Steve vs Tony fight was bad ass' and nothing more.

Artist intent/goal kinda goes out the window when the product is released and people take whatever they want from it.

 

[Christopher]

If the response is 'I had a fun time at the movies or on my couch and I have a smile on my face from the big bombs and shiny SFX', is that still an ok response?

Of course. It's not a competition. That's the whole point. If you don't want to question the different strength levels and other people do, then both perspectives are fine and there's no sense pitting them against each other.

 

[fireproof78]

I thought the whole idea of the super formula was that it emphasized all your traits. So, we're wouldn't there be a variety of responses in terms of attributes?

 

[Christopher]

I thought the whole idea of the super formula was that it emphasized all your traits. So, we're wouldn't there be a variety of responses in terms of attributes?

Maybe. And it's been suggested that Peggy was taller and stronger to start with than Skinny Steve, but I'm not sure of the exact numbers (I can't find any height info for Leander Deeny, the body double/template for Skinny Steve).

It occurs to me that we have one other recent source for examples of successful super-soldier serum transformations, i.e. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. A number of different people there get super-soldier powers, so the question is, what are the most impressive feats of strength they displayed there? I don't remember many details of the action sequences.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

I thought the whole idea of the super formula was that it emphasized all your traits. So, we're wouldn't there be a variety of responses in terms of attributes?

It's been ages since I last watched it, but the first 'Swamp Thing' movie did something similar with its bio-restorative formula in that it enhanced certain traits in people.
It turned a cowardly thug into a drawf pig like creature and Anton Arcane into a scalely purple haired werewolf.

 

[Reverend]

IIRC Atwell and Deeny are about the same height (5'5" or thereabouts) but that means approximately jack and squat, because movies make people appear taller and/or shorter than they are all the time. (Seriously, look up the ridiculous platform wedges RDJ had to wear just to be able to be in the same frame as either of the two Chris's. Or even better; literally every Tom Cruise movie ever.)

So what actually matters isn't how tall the actors are, but how tall the characters are in the shots, and as you can see in this scene (the only one they're this close together and on the same level), skinny Steve is clearly meant to be several inches shorter and a number of pounds lighter. Like he only just comes up to her eyeline. Likely achieved by having Atwell on a booster seat, and/or having Evan's side lowered, or through a forced perspective trick. I get the feeling Deeny was shot separately so the scale is kind of inconsistent.

I thought the whole idea of the super formula was that it emphasized all your traits. So, we're wouldn't there be a variety of responses in terms of attributes?

That's more about how it manifests and affects the personality, not necessarily the magnitude of the physical enhancement. If they'd given it to Hodge the way Phillips initially wanted, he'd have still been a roided up beefcake super soldier, but also even more a dumb bully than he already was.

 

[Commander Troi]

I get the feeling Deeny was shot separately so the scale is kind of inconsistent.

Agreed. It reminds me of the slightly "off" look in The Lord of the Rings movies.

 

[Christopher]

Okay, so Peggy's bigger than Skinny Steve. But then, so are most of the people who got the serum in Falcon & Winter Soldier, and they didn't gain height or turn into hulking musclemen/women, they just got stronger with the build they already had.

Though I guess it's easy enough to assume it's not an exact recreation of the Erskine formula, just the first successful attempt to recreate it without producing Hulkish side effects. But then, I guess we already knew that, since Erskine's formula required Vita-Rays, while the Flag Smashers' formula only required the injection. Now that I think it over, I suppose it was a bad idea to suggest using TF&TWS as a comparison after all.

So maybe it's the Vita-Rays that made the difference? Makes sense, since it was the combination of knockoff super-soldier serum and gamma rays that created the Hulk and the Abomination.

 

[Reverend]

What does it matter how wildly different versions of the formula affected different people in different circumstances? The only relevant point of comparison here is Peggy and Steve since they were both injected with literally the same dose, with the same machine. The only variable in these two versions of event was the respective subjects.
"Slightly taller and bigger than Skinny Steve" Peggy went in, "Slightly bigger and stronger than Captain America" Peggy came out. This isn't rocket surgery, it's comic book super science!

 

[JD]

Which is probably harder to get a handle on than real rocket science.

 

[theenglish]

I'm not sure we are supposed to read that much into Carter's "power up". When I was watching it, I was thinking that it the feats of strength just stylistically different, more comic book style, because it was a cartoon. For example, in a live action movie we are not going to see a sword cutting so deep into a stone floor like we did in this episode. We could see Steve throw vehicles--it just wouldn't look so effortless.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Okay, so Peggy's bigger than Skinny Steve. But then, so are most of the people who got the serum in Falcon & Winter Soldier, and they didn't gain height or turn into hulking musclemen/women, they just got stronger with the build they already had.

Though I guess it's easy enough to assume it's not an exact recreation of the Erskine formula, just the first successful attempt to recreate it without producing Hulkish side effects. But then, I guess we already knew that, since Erskine's formula required Vita-Rays, while the Flag Smashers' formula only required the injection. Now that I think it over, I suppose it was a bad idea to suggest using TF&TWS as a comparison after all.

So maybe it's the Vita-Rays that made the difference? Makes sense, since it was the combination of knockoff super-soldier serum and gamma rays that created the Hulk and the Abomination.

Helping you in the third episode, powerbroker, Dr. Nagel said this about his super soldier serum...

"No clunky machines or jacked up bodies. Mine was going to be subtle. Optimized. Perfect."

 

[Christopher]

Helping you in the third episode, powerbroker, Dr. Nagel said this about his super soldier serum...

"No clunky machines or jacked up bodies. Mine was going to be subtle. Optimized. Perfect."

Oh, yes, I remember now.

Still curious about just how strong they were shown to be, though. I think one of them smashed through a highway sign in the truck fight, and I doubt those are flimsy. So that's probably a pretty major feat of strength.

 

[UssGlenn]

So what actually matters isn't how tall the actors are, but how tall the characters are in the shots, and as you can see in this scene (the only one they're this close together and on the same level), skinny Steve is clearly meant to be several inches shorter and a number of pounds lighter.

Steve is 5'7 as listed on his enlistment form, at least on the images floating around online, it's not actually visible onscreen. Hailey Atwell is also 5'7, however in the movie Steve is about 2 inches shorter. If you go to 1:50 in the same video you posted you can see them standing next to each other before the vault door opens, where Steve looks visibly shorter (by about 2 inches).

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Well, Peggy and Steve in his Hydrastomper suit did something here Tony and Steve never did to that degree. Synergize and fight as a unit.

If Tony had ever built a Captain America support suit, it might have looked quite similar to what we have seen here with Peggy’s

Steve is 5'7 as listed on his enlistment form, at least on the images floating around online, it's not actually visible onscreen. Hailey Atwell is also 5'7, however in the movie Steve is about 2 inches shorter. If you go to 1:50 in the same video you posted you can see them standing next to each other before the vault door opens, where Steve looks visibly shorter (by about 2 inches).

can we assume she wears high heels in that scene?

 

[UssGlenn]

can we assume she wears high heels in that scene?

She is, you can see them when they exit off the street, good catch. So they are the same height, she just has more muscle. Steve is 110 lbs on his exam form. Steve looks slightly shorter sitting in the car but this can easily be from posture, or simply if the height is in the legs vs torso.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, as I said a lot of that is done with various methods VFX trickery (sometimes it's Evans's head comped onto the body double, sometimes it's the body double comped onto Evans) and the scales are rather inconsistent between shots. Not that that's a problem, the point is that it sells the idea that he's small and skinny at first glance, not to hold up to intense analysis.
I deliberately used the car scene as the reference point precisely because they're both sat down right next to each other on the same seat, and as such heels aren't a factor.

Movies lie...like, all the time. It's kinda the whole point!

 

[Relayer1]

"Slightly taller and bigger than Skinny Steve" Peggy went in, "Slightly bigger and stronger than Captain America" Peggy came out.

But I'm a long way from great physical shape, but I'm way stronger than my wife. I don't think that stacks up.

Anyhow, I watched the rest of the episode. I'm not a fan, but it was bearably short !

I'll watch the others, and if they're similarly "cartoony" I'll just consider the events to be part of the MCU in "broad strokes".

 

[Christopher]

I'll watch the others, and if they're similarly "cartoony" I'll just consider the events to be part of the MCU in "broad strokes".

I find the Guardians movies and Thor: Ragnarok pretty broad and implausible in their storytelling, if that's what you mean by "cartoony." I mean, they have a talking raccoon, tree, and duck in them. And the physics in the MCU have always been absurd, ever since Tony Stark survived crashing into the desert at rocket speed inside a rigid metal suit. It shouldn't matter whether it's live-action or animation. Especially since so much of the "live-action" these days is computer animation anyway, so the distinction between the two is becoming increasingly irrelevant.