Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[The Nth Doctor]

Along with the fact Dave Bautista has made it very clear his loyalty to Gunn while Zoe Saldaña recently expressed franchise fatigue. Aside from some far future one-off appearance, I would be very surprised if any of them will stick around for the next iteration of the Guardians. Maybe Mantis but that's it.

 

[Mage]

Vin Diesel would never stop voicing Groot though. You know, because you never abandon family.

 

[theenglish]

Along with the fact Dave Bautista has made it very clear his loyalty to Gunn while Zoe Saldaña recently expressed franchise fatigue. Aside from some far future one-off appearance, I would be very surprised if any of them will stuck around for the next iteration of the Guardians. Maybe Mantis but that's it.

Those I know about. Does anyone know what Pratt has said?

 

[Saul]

At the very least, Gunn has said it is his last Guardians film.

I believe he also said it's his last marvel movie. That's not to say he would never come back but considering how he got dropped by marvel in the past and how busy he is going to be making DC big again I doubt he will have time for both universes.

 

[Relayer1]

Can't say I'm overly concerned at losing Gunn and / or some of the main team. Although I loved the first film, I liked the second one less and three should be enough.

Some of the cast can easily cross over to Nova Corps appearances and a new lineup isn't exactly out of the question.

Guardians were a good bridge into the wider Marvel Universe, but there's enough out there for Marvel to run with - Nova, Warlock, Kree, Skrull, Shi'ar, Galactus, The Surfer, Captain Marvel and so on.

 

[theenglish]

I am hoping for the Annihilation storyline--it would be a good way to connect our space based characters over several films. That would be my Phase 7 preference.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

We have some casting news for Daredevil: Born Again...although nothing about Deborah Ann Woll and Elden Henson. Deadline reports in two separate articles that Michael Gandolfini, Margarita Levieva, and Sandrine Holt have joined the cast in unknown roles. I haven't seen anything with Gandolfini, but I loved Levieva's character, Abby, in The Deuce, and Holt pops up all over the place in great supporting roles such as House of Cards and Better Call Saul.

Hopefully we'll hear something about Woll and Henson sooner than later.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Casting Director: "When you asked for Gandolfini, you meant Michael, right? Wait, come back..."

 

[eschaton]

Now having seen all of the MCU phase 4, my quick rankings:

Movies:

1. Spider-Man: No Way Home: I can quibble with a few choices made, like how they fridged Aunt May, but this was about as perfect of a conclusion to Peter's arc in the MCU (to date or for good) as we could have asked for.
2. Black Panther: Wakanda Forever: A great movie which is just slightly dragged down by having a bit too much stuff in it (American sideplot, likely for Thunderbolts, introducing Riri Williams, etc.).
3. Shang-Chi: A legitimately great MCU-Wuxia mashup with some of the best action scenes in the MCU to date. Downgraded just a bit because Shang is kinda a boring protagonist (this is his father's movie really) and the CGI dragon fight added in the third act was stupid.
4. Thor: Love and Thunder: I don't think it was all that bad, TBH. Jokes didn't bother me, and the movie got me to care about Thor and Jane's relationship for the first time ever. Not to say it wasn't flawed as a movie (Act 2 in particular just felt like a complete waste) but I was suitably entertained, and I felt a feeling.
   
5. Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness: I wanted to like this movie more than I did, and Raimi's direction was fantastic. That said, this was an extremely weak script which treated Wanda's character in particular like a garbage plot device with the flimsiest of motivations. I can't believe the character depth we saw in Wandavision was...for this.
6. Black Widow: Completely unnecessary movie which was seemingly made solely for contractual reasons. The antagonist and motivations were incredibly poorly constructed. Some points for decent family dynamics however.
7. Eternals: I appreciate what they were trying to do here, but this was one MCU movie that really should have been a Disney+ show. Too many characters, too little runtime. It was also a curious idea to center a superhero movie around characters who...aren't superheroes. To the point where the big philosophical debate of the movie was "hey, maybe we shouldn't save people at all!" Also the whole multiple antagonists, none of which were really given proper focus. Still, it was really pretty.

TV:

1. Loki: Clearly, far and away, the best Disney+ show to date. I loved that they leaned into the weird, that it's really a wacky sci-fantasy tale which is pretty far removed from superheroes. Liked they had the confidence to not go with a big stupid battle in the finale which clashed tonally with the rest of the show (unlike some other series). Plus Tom Hiddleston is always great.
2. She-Hulk: Attorney at Law: This is the first Disney+ show to really embrace that it's a TV show fully, leaning into being a light, semi-serialized sitcom about a character who just happens to have superpowers, rather than being about a superheroine. I give it massive props for that reason. It started and ended on its own terms, and wasn't afraid to buck the conventions the MCU has set.
3. WandaVision: The beginning of the show was absolutely brilliant, when they leaned into the recreation of TV from different eras. Unfortunately it lost steam as the show shifted focus into the serialized story, and the season finale witch combat between Wanda and Agatha was just awful.
4. Moon Knight: Moon Knight was...fine. I liked that this was a slightly darker, more mature take on the MCU, and it had the confidence to tell what seems for the moment to be an entirely self-contained story without involving the wider MCU. That said, the show really hasn't had much lasting power in my headspace. It was fine while it lasted, and now it's done. I do hope it gets picked up for a second season though.
5. Hawkeye: This show was successful at what it did, providing a grounded, lower-stakes family-friendly series, giving an underutilized member of the Avengers his moment to shine, and introducing a (presumable) future Young Avenger. That said, as with Moon Knight, I sort of think this feels like disposable fluff in retrospect.
6. Ms. Marvel: I thought the show was effective at blending teen coming-of-age dramedy with the MCU format, but it felt like it was trying to do a bit too much across only six episodes, and the world-destroying plot which was introduced in episode 4 was completely and totally unneeded. At least it was resolved before the finale, which was basically a smaller-scale story about rescuing Kamran.
7. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier: The biggest missed opportunity in the entire TV run to date, because it was heading in a really smart/critical fashion setting up John Walker as the primary antagonist, and then walked it all back for a mushy centrist conclusion. As a result, I'm just...why did this need to happen? Cap already gave Sam the shield in Endgame, he was already set to be Captain America, and there was no need for him to nope out, then change his mind due to the poorly-plotted mess that was the Flag Smashers.
8. What If...: Some of the individual episodes were good, but it was hit/miss, skippable, and the decision to actually create some continuity within the show itself was pretty amazingly wrongheaded.

Edit: GOTG holiday special would rank between She Hulk and Wandavision, and Werewolf By Night between Wandavision and Moon Knight.

 

[Tuskin38]

What If...: Some of the individual episodes were good, but it was hit/miss, skippable, and the decision to actually create some continuity within the show itself was pretty amazingly wrongheaded.

Allegedly Season 2 won't be like that. Every episode will be stand alone.

 

[eschaton]

Thinking about it further, there is one flaw which goes through almost everything in Phase 4 of the MCU:

It all tries to do way too fucking much!

Whether the movies/series are good or meh, they invariably throw too much shit in there, which results in muddled themes and loose/sloppy plotting. Sometimes it's done pretty transparently because they want to introduce additional characters who will have their own roles in the franchise (so we get nonsensical crap like Riri being in Wakanda Forever, or Kingpin returning in Hawkeye). Sometimes it seems to be because they're scared to have a tightly-focused character study and need to drag in a big action scene into the last act/episode, no matter how nonsensical.

In terms of tight Phase 4 material? You basically have the two specials - Werewolf by Night and the GoTG Holiday Special. Then you have Moon Knight and Loki. Everything else is too focused on setting up a tentpole for the next big thing to actually tell its core narrative as effectively as possible.

 

[Ethros]

or Kingpin returning in Hawkeye

I recently rewatched the series and they mention "the big guy" a good 2-3 times in the first few episodes, so didn't feel like he was randomly shoe-horned at all to me

 

[theenglish]

I'll play the ranking game on Phase 4. I agree that many instalments tried to do too much and lost the sense of fun--but I did like the movies/shows that succeeded and The Eternals went up in my rankings compared to when I first saw it:

Movies:
1. Wakanda Forever
2. Thor: Love and Thunder
3. Shang-Chi
4. The Eternals
5. Doctor Strange
6. Spider-Man
7. Black Widow

Shows (Minus Werewolf by Night because I haven't seen it):
1. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
2. Wandavision
3. She-Hulk
4. Guardians Christmas Special
5. Hawkeye
6. Loki
7. Moon Knight
8. Ms. Marvel
9. What if...?

IMPORTANT CAVEAT: There wasn't anything that I didn't like--I really enjoyed it all. Furthermore I think this whole Phase IV is the worst talk -- the MCU is on it last legs--stuff is bullshit. Phase IV has some of the best stuff, the most original stories, and diversity of both casts and styles we've seen thus far.

 

[Dee1891]

Whether the movies/series are good or meh, they invariably throw too much shit in there, which results in muddled themes and loose/sloppy plotting. Sometimes it's done pretty transparently because they want to introduce additional characters who will have their own roles in the franchise (so we get nonsensical crap like Riri being in Wakanda Forever, or Kingpin returning in Hawkeye). Sometimes it seems to be because they're scared to have a tightly-focused character study and need to drag in a big action scene into the last act/episode, no matter how nonsensical.

For me, you may have also described Phase 3. I wasn't fond of that phase any more than I am of the current one that just ended.

 

[Anwar]

[QUOTE="eschaton, post: 14333551, member: 74784"
Whether the movies/series are good or meh, they invariably throw too much shit in there, which results in muddled themes and loose/sloppy plotting. Sometimes it's done pretty transparently because they want to introduce additional characters who will have their own roles in the franchise (so we get nonsensical crap like Riri being in Wakanda Forever, or Kingpin returning in Hawkeye).[/QUOTE]

How are either of these worse than how Punisher showed up in Daredevil S2?

 

[eschaton]

For me, you may have also described Phase 3. I wasn't fond of that phase any more than I am of the current one that just ended.

I dunno. Phase 3 mostly kept to what Phases 1/2 did, and kept the teases of additional stories stuck in the end credits. Obviously some of the movies were set up as more-or-less sequels to Civil War (Spider-Man: Homecoming, Black Panther), and a lot of movies were more interconnected than they really needed to be (Hulk didn't need to effectively costar in Ragnorok for the movie to work) but in general I think the lack of a tightly-connected TV universe kept the movies pretty disciplined.

How are either of these worse than how Punisher showed up in Daredevil S2?

In my mind the difference is basically that there's so much MCU content now that you just don't need to introduce characters by being "special guest stars" in another movie or TV show. The ideal thing is you just give them their own standalone story to function as their origin story. It could be a movie, it could be a TV miniseries, it could even be a special event like Werewolf By Night.

Obviously you don't need to do this with everyone, as sometimes there's breakout characters where there wasn't originally a huge plan for, like Loki. But if they always planned to introduce Riri Williams, they really should have done so in Ironheart, not added her awkwardly into Wakanda Forever. If they always planned on an Echo show, they should have just made one, not pasted her into Hawkeye.

I should make it clear here that I don't mind crossovers or cameos. She-Hulk had a ton of these, and I didn't mind it because they were being used for reasons which were integral to the stories being told (okay, except maybe Daredevil's return being gratuitous, but at least they boned).

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I don't see any logical argument whatsoever that Riri wasn't integral to the story Wakanda Forever was telling, honestly.

 

[Christopher]

If they always planned on an Echo show, they should have just made one, not pasted her into Hawkeye.

I thought that they didn't decide to give Echo a spinoff until they were impressed with Alaqua Cox's performance in Hawkeye and decided she deserved a lead role.

 

[eschaton]

I don't see any logical argument whatsoever that Riri wasn't integral to the story Wakanda Forever was telling, honestly.

Riri was a MacGuffin, not a character. She had no arc, no agency, and just sort of...stood around and watched while the entire movie happened except for two action scenes.

Even Ross got a more complete arc, and he was onscreen for maybe 10 minutes tops.

The movie could have worked just as well if the Wakandans were trying to capture a thing rather than a person, and could have been at least 20 minutes shorter.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I thought that they didn't decide to give Echo a spinoff until they were impressed with Alaqua Cox's performance in Hawkeye and decided she deserved a lead role.

I recall the same.