Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by bbjeg, Apr 6, 2014.

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What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)

  1. A+

    19.9%
  2. A

    33.8%
  3. A-

    13.2%
  4. B+

    7.4%
  5. B

    14.0%
  6. B-

    2.2%
  7. C+

    2.2%
  8. C

    3.7%
  9. C-

    1.5%
  10. D+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. D-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. F

    2.2%
  1. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You're absolutely right on that. I think it is more likely that they, or higher ups, had certain criteria to play down the "costumed" super-hero angle -- probably because of the belief that it would play to a broader audience.
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    It's usually the way of TV comics adaptations to start out with a "grounded" approach and ease the general audience into the more comic-booky stuff. Smallville spent years trying to minimize the comic-book elements of its premise and turn the Superboy story into Dawson's Creek, and didn't really lean into the comics stuff until things like the X-Men and Spider-Man movies had made superheroes respectable. Arrow started out as a very grounded, street-level urban vigilante series, then started gradually working in sci-fi elements, then spun off The Flash, and so on, until the Arrowverse had become a full-on comic-book universe with metahumans and time travel and magic and aliens and unfettered craziness. Agents of SHIELD started out as the kind of crime procedural ABC was comfortable with, featuring a team of normal humans working for the government and investigating weird phenomena, but then started bringing in more comics characters and superpowered characters and leaning harder into the sci-fi every season.

    Heck, this even happened in animation. The DC Animated Universe started off fairly grounded with Batman: The Animated Series -- which had sci-fi elements like Man-Bat and Clayface and evil robots and invisibility suits and so on, but was overall a much more grounded series than Superman or Batman Beyond or Justice League would be, avoiding elements that later became common, such as aliens and magic.
     
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  3. The Knappos

    The Knappos Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I think it’s 2/5s this and 3/5s budget
     
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  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly so. There was little in the shows that felt out of step with when I was watching Captain America: The First Avenger. It felt more grounded, with the larger than life elements down played and slowly explored more. Daredevil was far more about the psychology of Matt Murdock vs. Wilson Fisk than the larger than life parts and it did that quite well while feeling closer to the films, and bringing in elements of the comics.
     
  5. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It remains the best and most compelling, adult exploration of Banner and his alter-ego ever committed to film.
     
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  6. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly. Comic characters are not all flashy and over-the-top, and as far as being more grounded goes (within a fantasy framework), the best of the MCU continues to be Captain America: The Winter Soldier by some considerable distance--which was achieved without 50 explosions per second, aliens, or energy blasts. Its telling that all of the hand weapons used in the film were real world firearms (or based on it), and even Maria's stun baton is based on real world tech. The costumes--specifically Captain America, the Falcon and Maria Hill are all muted colors-to-dark, each designed to serve practical purposes, rather than being loud and flashy. That was just one of the visual strengths of the Marvel Netflix series, and again, that kind of character treatment is what the MCU has needed for some time.
     
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  7. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This.

    I like Mark Ruffalo and Edward Norton but their MCU portrayals don't even come close to what Bixby pulled off.
     
  8. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It was a good show, but it would have been nice if somewhere in the 80 episodes they could have worked in some other stuff from the comics. Even if they didn't want to go for other superpowered characters, it wouldn't have been that hard to work in characters like the Rosses and Rick Jones, who were all still unpowered at that point.
    Just to be clear, it's a great show, and I don't mean this as a dig, it's just that ever since I became of fan of the comics, that's been my one disappointment with the show.
    And yes, I am aware of Kingpin, Daredevil, and Thor being in the movies, but that was after the show had ended, and I haven't seen them, so I have no idea what they were like.
    Even though the early Smallville seasons avoided taking a lot from the comics, they still managed to include Lana Lang, Pete Ross, Lex Luthor and the Kents.
    Just with the '70s shows, Wonder Woman and Spider-Man both managed to work in some of the supporting characters from their comics.
     
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  9. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Back then, it was uncommon for live-action screen adaptations of comics to use that many characters from them besides the main leads. DC adaptations tended to use only the heroes and some of their supporting cast, but generally used mostly or entirely original villains. (Batman '66 was the main exception, and only 1/3 of its villains were from the comics. But Marvel adaptations hardly even used any of the supporting characters. The '70s Spider-Man TV series only used Peter Parker and J. Jonah Jameson, plus Aunt May in the pilot alone, and otherwise created a new supporting cast. The Dr. Strange pilot movie featured Strange, Wong, Clea, and Morgan Le Fay (technically a Marvel character), but otherwise featured new characters (though the unnamed villain could be interpreted as Dormammu). The two Reb Brown Captain America pilot movies featured no comics characters besides Steve Rogers, and he was the son of the original Captain America (who went uncostumed in that reality).


    The Hulk/Thor movie was cheesy but fun. I didn't like the way it broke the reality of the show's universe; the original series had been pretty grounded, with no SF/fantasy elements besides gamma mutation, the occasional psychic, a sentient AI in one episode, and some vague Asian mysticism in the two Mako episodes. So bringing in literal magic and supernatural beings was hugely incongruous. I also didn't like how much more violent it was compared to the original show. But the character work was good. It reinterpreted Donald Blake and Thor, having Blake summon Thor like a genie from the hammer rather than turn into him, but that allowed them to have a surprisingly effective mismatched-partners interplay.

    As for The Trial of the Incredible Hulk, it's a pretty good Daredevil pilot for its day, albeit a mediocre Hulk movie, with the Hulk not even appearing in the climax. It doesn't use any of the DD cast besides Matt and Kingpin, creating new characters in place of Foggy and Karen, but Matt and Kingpin are handled effectively, and I like the relationship that forms between Matt and David Banner. (The movie is also notable as Stan Lee's first live-action Marvel cameo, in a dream sequence.)


    Barely, as I said. Wonder Woman's first season featured Steve Trevor, Etta Candy, and Diana's mother (who went unnamed), and was one of the rare shows to use actual villains from the comics (albeit only in its first two episodes), but season 2 (set in the present) only featured Steve Trevor Jr., and marginalized him after 8 episodes when producer Bruce Lansbury took over and tried to turn the show into a Bionic Woman clone with Diana as a solo agent and Steve as her boss back in the office. And Spider-Man only used JJJ after the pilot, and it was a toned-down, more avuncular JJJ, closer to Perry White in characterization.
     
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  10. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's true, but still they at least used more characters than The Incredible Hulk.
    I just remembered that they have the ICH movies on Tubi, I might have to watch them sometime.
     
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  11. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wish they would hurry up with the x men. I’m curious what their plans are for them.
     
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  12. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Most did, but the Captain America pilot movies didn't. And Filmation's Shazam! featured no comics characters other than Billy Batson/Captain Marvel. So TIH wasn't quite unique in that respect.

    I do agree that it might've been interesting to have General Ross as a recurring antagonist, though the show's budget wouldn't have allowed for a lot in the way of military confrontations. It was an expensive show as it was, what with the location filming and all the stunt work and strength gags. So it made more sense to have a civilian adversary like Jack McGee. Ross might have worked only as an occasional guest star, maybe showing up a couple of times per season. (Maybe he could even have been played by John Vernon, who voiced Ross in the '90s animated series opposite Lou Ferrigno as the Hulk.)

    Betty wouldn't have worked as an ongoing love interest, probably, since David Banner's love interests had a tendency to die dramatically in the rain. And having Rick Jones tagging along wouldn't have fit very well with the whole "Lonely Man" approach.

    I think there was actually an attempt by the network to convince Kenneth Johnson to add Rick Jones or an equivalent sidekick character, along with an RV that could provide a standing set and ease the budget demands somewhat, but Johnson stood firmly against changing the format.
     
  13. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Now 20% less crazy! Premium Member

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    Nah. J'onn is one of the most powerful characters in the DCU and has been in almost every JL. I consider him more McCartney. :hugegrin:

    Actually, that made me think of Melvin from the Daredevil show (and comics).

    I barely remember it, but I know I loved the show and (back then) knew nothing of the comic. I should watch them again and see how they hold up.

    Again, I don't remember much, but I remember liking Rex Smith as Daredevil and wishing they'd done that show. I vaguely remember thinking Thor was goofy.

    Excellent! Does anyone know if the Bixby show is available online anywhere?
     
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  14. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  15. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Let's not forget that Diana Muldaur played David Banner's sister in at least one episode of The Incredible Hulk so there's a Star Trek connection right there. :)
     
  16. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    Last edited: Dec 28, 2021
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  17. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    She also played another "sister," a nun, in a different episode.

    A more direct Trek connection: The title narration and the Hulk's growls were done by Ted Cassidy, and when Cassidy died, Charles Napier took over as the Hulk's voice. Napier also appeared in two or three episodes, as did plenty of other Trek guests, some of the most memorable ones including Mariette Hartley as David's wife in the "Married" 2-parter, Harry Townes & Dick Durock as the human and creature forms of "The First" Hulk, Whit Bissell as a scientist in the "Prometheus" 2-parter, Kim Cattrall as a supposedly Native American archaeologist who recognizes David Banner in "Kindred Spirits," and Ray Walston (Bixby's former My Favorite Martian co-star) as the title character in "My Favorite Magician."
     
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  18. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yep to all of those! Harry Townes as the other Hulk in "The First" always reminds me of "The Return of the Archons(TOS)" and Landru and helps make that two-parter even creepier when you think back on Townes' similarly on-edge role in the Trek episode. I enjoy those actor crossovers.
     
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  19. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Now 20% less crazy! Premium Member

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  20. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    Thought the same and checked but no.