Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by bbjeg, Apr 6, 2014.

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What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)

  1. A+

    15.1%
  2. A

    39.5%
  3. A-

    14.0%
  4. B+

    5.8%
  5. B

    15.1%
  6. B-

    3.5%
  7. C+

    2.3%
  8. C

    3.5%
  9. C-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. D+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. D-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. F

    1.2%
  1. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Even if they are already established when they start the movie, there is still enough of a history of crazy sci-fi shenanigans in the MCU thanks to AoS, Ant-Man, and Agent Carter, that their origin would be pretty easy to fold in without to many questions.
     
  2. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Or failing that, they could just have them show up from some kind of crazy 1960's futurist sci-fi style of alternate Earth and get stuck in the MCU. I mean they've done the man/woman out of time thing three times already, so why not change it up a little?

    The X-Men are a little more problematic, but then I tend to think that of their comic incarnation too. As a group, they've always made the most sense in a world all of their own and with the exception of a few characters like Wade & Logan, they make next to no sense in the larger marvel universe, never mind the MCU.
     
  3. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    I think the way I would do it is establish that there are very, very few mutants in the world (Xavier, Magneto and Logan perhaps included among them). So few that people who hear about them generally don't believe the stories. Then, something happens. I'm thinking of how the terrigen cloud activated inhuman genes across the planet in the comics. Perhaps it's something to do with the Infinity Stones, perhaps something to do with the Eternals, that activates thousands of mutant genes across the planet, making them a public and worldwide concern.
     
  4. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The problem that that approach is that it runs counter to the notion that mutants are and have always been an oppressed and openly reviled part of society, usually as a stand-in for any and all minorities suffering under civil rights abuses. Making them a new, literally just emerged out of thin air group changes the narrative somewhat, especially when you factor in Magneto, his history and outlook.
    I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it runs against the grain of what they're supposed to be about. But then, as previously stated I think this is a problem that exists in the comic book version too.

    I suppose there's a chance that if Endgame ends with some kind of time stone shenanigans that they could be slipped into the timeline Flashpoint style, but honestly that would be a little cheap and it's not like they could have planned Phase 4 with that in mind anyway.
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I still think the simplest way to do it, though it would enrage the purists, would be to discard the term "mutant" and just build on the Inhuman backstory that Agents of SHIELD has laid out over the past few seasons, with Inhumans as the persecuted minority. Or just have "mutant" be an alternate term applied to Inhumans, maybe the kind of label that's initially derogatory but gets embraced by the group as a term of pride, like "queer." It would diverge a lot from the comics to have mutants and Inhumans be one and the same instead of rival groups, but part of the value of adaptations is that you get to distill things and streamline redundancies -- which is why every live-action version of the Flash has been an amalgam of Barry Allen and Wally West, for example.

    Of course, that would require the MCU movie division acknowledging the existence of the TV division, and I know that'll probably never happen.
     
  6. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Admiral Admiral

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    I hope not.
    Clean slate.
     
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  7. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They did before the writers went nuts with the Mutant Hatred in the late 80s. And everytime a writer tried to do stories that developed the premise and showed the X-Men doing good at their mission, the next one would either ignore it or undo it.
     
  8. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If they do an MCU FF movie, the origin events could just be compressed into the opening credits. That's been done successfully on more than a few occasions, now.
     
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  9. Samurai8472

    Samurai8472 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Since the MCU loves era specific movies my idea has been a 60's or 70's version Fantastic four.

    The 60's has been done by "First Class" and 70's "days of futures past" and 80's "Apocalypse"

    Well I guess a specific era can be touched upon more than once lol

    Basically the Fantastic Four would be like the Incredibles. A secret team that the government knows about. Maybe throw a young Hank Pym in there with an Ant-man cameo.

    Years later the government forgets about the Fantastic Four.

    Doctor Doom decides to take over the land that was once Sokovia and make it his own nation. The U.N says "No"
     
  10. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Why are people obsessed with putting the FF in the 60s? The various comics don't act like they're in the sixties, and there is nothing about the FF overall that is very sixties-ish. If I handed someone who had never heard of the FF a Fantastic Four comic written in 2019 and told them the group debuted in the 80s they'd believe me, because the FF doesn't have anything about them that screams that they're from any particular era.

    Plus, as someone who has read a decent amount of old FF, the 60s were one of their worst eras, writing wise. Sure there were iconic moments and storylines, but the character writing was bad even for the era and the few really 60s-ish feeling parts of the book were either pointless (mentions of evil communists) or really bad (Sue being a meek stereotype, Reed being a giant prick, etc).

    Its 2019. Literally nothing about the modern Fantastic Four makes them being a time displaced team make sense. At least Spider-Man had a mediocre (but popular) comic run to justify movies putting him back in High School. Setting a FF movie in the 60s makes about as much sense as setting a Blade movie in 1973. Its a completely arbitrary choice made for no other reason then the comic debuted at that time.
     
  11. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's as maybe, but we are where we are.
    Anyway, the larger problem as I see it is that X-Men generally wants to be a near future quasi-dystopian social allegory and that world by and large simply isn't reflected in other non-X titles.

    I remember it being especially jarring in the old 90's cartoons when the X-Men suddenly showed up in a Spider-Man episode. The shows were so different it was like Luke Skywalker randomly showing up in the Enterprise and nobody comments on it, or speaks of him again!

    I could see "mutant" being used as a derogatory term for anyone and everyone with abilities rather than a specific type of person with abilities. That would implicitly include Inhumans without every having to acknowledge them. Indeed, would a bigot really care if a mutant got their powers from a random genetic mutation, some mad science experiment, GMO spiders or ancient Kree heritage?

    Perhaps the way forward to to ditch Magneto's WWII connection and just start over from scratch in present day with a young Not-Yet-A-Professor-X. Maybe make him and Erik former SHIELD consultants on enhanced individuals and The Index. That gives them something of a history with both each other and "mutants" without having to redefine MCU history.

    If nothing else, that ways leaves the door is wide open to just straight up make Erik Wanda & Pietro's absentee father. Indeed, IIRC, wasn't Erik's history as a holocaust survivor a relatively recent invention? They could just go back to the less specific "ethnic purge somewhere in eastern europe". They could tie it into the fall of the Soviet Union and the break-up of Yugoslavia.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  12. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  13. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not 100% sure, but I think I read somewhere that the comics went back & forth on that point a few times before the Singer films really solidified it. Still, '81 is the best part of two decade after the character was invented, so it's not something that was there from his inception.

    Just to be clear though, regardless of everything else, at this point I think it'd be a mistake to make Erik anything other than Jewish (by decent if not practising.) So I'm not advocating a change in that regard, just his specific personal history.
     
  14. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    I think the X-Men work perfectly fine in the greater Marvel universe. The only issue is not the X-Men but the mutant metaphor.

    I was recently re-reading the beginning of Chris Claremont's run. In one of those issues (I want to say #95 or 96), they state that the X-Men are the only confirmed mutants in the entire world, the rest are just rumors. This would have been ten years after the first X-Men issue. So, to me, the solution is simple. Just introduce the X-Men from scratch. Don't introduce them as an established minority group or anything like that, introduce them as an unknown.
     
  15. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't see the distinction. In my mind, the two are inexorably interlinked. I mean it's kind of like saying "Sure, you can totally have the family from 'Roots' without that whole 'slavery' thing!"

    You can certainly transplant the characters into other characters' stories and it works within those very specific confines, but generally there's a fundamental incompatibility when you compare the world of the X-Men to almost every other storyline. I mean they may as well be from somewhere else in the multiverse in some regards.
     
  16. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's bizarre because in #97 they had Havoc and Polaris, neither of which were X-Men. I'm not sure I follow. I'm actually going by memory as unfortunately I don't have that run anymore (I could kick myself a thousand times for trading it).
     
  17. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    But part of what makes the FF distinctive is that they aren't secret. They're totally public about their abilities and their adventures. Their celebrity is an integral part of their story, and has been ever since the early issues when they were answering bags full of fan mail from the readers of the in-universe comic book dramatizing their adventures (supposedly the same comic we were reading). And they aren't government agents or spies -- they aren't even superheroes as their primary job, though they are when they need to be. They're explorers, inventors, and adventurers. They're a scientific think tank and troubleshooting team and charitable foundation.
     
  18. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Also, the X-Comics have had periods where the X-Men themselves weren't feared or hated and were just seen as another superhero team. And this was under Claremont.

    The Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas, for example.
     
  19. Enterprise is Great

    Enterprise is Great Vice Admiral Admiral

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  20. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I hope they base it on the well-regarded Matt Fraction/David Aja comics run focusing on Clint and Kate's everyday life between Avengers business.