Ms. Marvel proves otherwise.
Ms. Marvel proves otherwise.
Ms Marvel was a closed predestination time loop paradox.
She always traveled back in time, her future was always her pasts
It did not change a thing.
How about when Strange rewound time to bring Wong back to life at the end of Doctor Strange?
Arguing the 'science' of time travel in a franchise where they use a gemstone to travel, rewind, or endlessly repeat time.
And so was Steve returning the Infinity Stones and going back to the 40s to be with Peggy.
So Ms. Marvel proved what Endgame's writers said was their intent: Closed-Loop Time Travel is entirely possible despite Bruce Banner's assertions to the contrary.
Banner's an expert in Gamma Rays, not time travel I guess. I wish I had thought about it enough to use all those examples back when we had the big Endgame debate years ago.
But was it always the plan to return the infinity stones to where they came from?
Or was that a contingency Bruce came up with on the fly to get the time stone in the first place?
Unless they said it and I forgot that wasn’t the original plan
I don't recall exactly but I believe that is what he said when he was back in the past. I think it was an idea he came up with at that point to convince the Ancient One to allow him access to the stones.
That, like most "changing history" stories, could perhaps be interpreted as creating alternate branching timelines, with it only appearing to the time traveler and audience that the new timeline "replaces" the old because they move from one to the other.
Arguing the 'science' of time travel in a franchise where they use a gemstone to travel, rewind, or endlessly repeat time.
Even a fantasy universe has an obligation to remain consistent with its own established rules. Endgame explicitly and textually established a set of rules that Loki also followed (in that the only way a timeline could be "erased" was if the TVA actively destroyed its inhabitants), which means that if subsequent productions ignore those rules, it's a failure of competent writing. Writing standards should be the same regardless of genre.
Not according to Joe Russo.
"One thing that’s clear that Anthony and I have discussed, I don’t know that we’ve discussed this publicly at all, Cap would have had to have traveled back to the main timeline. That’s something that, yes, he would have been in a branch reality, but he would have to travel back to the main timeline to give that shield to Sam Wilson."
"In our internal logic that we defined in the room, that was the choice that we made. Based on everything that happened, he would have been in a branch reality and then had to have shifted over to this, so jumped from one to the other and handed the shield off."
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But how does that work? If Strange somehow creates a branch where Wong did not die, then why does Wong seemingly remember being dead? How does a branch bring someone back to life before our very eyes as the world around them is in reverse? And as we watch time literally rewind, Kaecilius breaks free of the rewind and fights Strange 'forwards'. How does any of that work with a "time travel creates branches" approach?
One might argue that the TVA only knows the truth about certain kinds of time travel because only certain kinds leave a mark behind for them to interact with.
Edit: Or when Strange creates an endless time loop. Strange and Dormammu are both aware of the loop as Strange dies over and over and over.
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So in other words, there was time travel in the MCU that did not create a branch.
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I'm not talking about the in-story claims, I'm saying that the Endgame model is the only one that makes any logical sense, and everything else is a nonsensical story conceit that contradicts itself if you actually think about it. The climax of Doctor Strange, while creative and impressively executed, is causally and logically self-contradictory and irreconcilable on multiple levels. Obviously any work of fiction can claim that something impossible is true in-story, but that doesn't make it any less impossible. I'm saying I respect Endgame's creators for applying enough care and intelligence to their creation to get temporal logic right for a change, something far too rare in time-travel fiction, so I don't respect the argument that there's some "other version" that the Endgame characters are simply "unaware" of.
This is what frustrates me about mass-media science fiction. There is so much absolute nonsense out there that's constantly presented as the default that when creators are actually smart and dedicated enough to get it right for a change, the audience doesn't recognize or respect the value of what they did because they expect the nonsensical version to be the correct one.
Which is an inconsistency in the storytelling. No created work is perfect, and sometimes ideas are changed along the way, like ST:TNG's Data using contractions frequently before it was suddenly asserted that he couldn't. But everything after that assertion stayed consistent with it (mostly). Doctor Strange was made before Endgame codified the rules, but since those rules were codified, other core MCU works like Loki have stayed consistent with them.
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Gotcha. At least now I know that no further interaction on this matter is warranted.
The Endgame writers' intent - which is consistent with everything else that they wrote for Steve Rogers' story - overrides the film Directors' personal opinions.
Actually, in point of fact, it does come down to what the directors wanted. Pretty much in all cases. And as for how they wrote Steve Rogers character, they wrote him as someone who cannot just stand by a while bad things were happening and also as someone who would make any sacrifice for his friend Bucky. So you're going to tell me that he's going to just sit back and live a happy life with Peggy and not only not tell Peggy about Hydra but just allow Hydra torture his friend? That doesn't fit in with any depiction of Steve Rogers I have ever encountered. Then you take in the logistics of the fact that he didn't even bring his broken and shattered shield with him to the past, but he somehow returns with a fully intact shield.
Then take into account the rules for the movies set down by Bruce, then Steve spending all those years and the 616 universe doesn't make sense on a character level, a story level or a logistical level.
At any rate ,all this pointless, circular debate will be rendered moot when Doomsday is released in December.
Yes, but not necessarily how you think it will.
Nor you.
It feels like directors outrank writers.
I also can't help thinking (but of course I can't prove this) that the whole point of the "Back to the Future" Banner scene in the movie is to plant a flag, so to speak, regarding the directors' stance -- and not to set up Banner for being proven wrong later.
There's a much higher chance, IMO, of Doomsday confirming that Steve going back to be with Peggy was a Closed Loop than there is that it created branched timeline.