Marvel All New, All Different - Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)

[kirk55555]

I think this is the first time I've heard Johnathan Hickman and Matt Fraction called bad writers. But given who said it, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Hickman is the man who wrote literally the most boring and confusing (although not necessarily the worst, which is saying something) event Marvel ever published, Infinity. He also wrote one of the worst Avengers runs. Even his popular FF run was mediocre( but it did have some hilarious bad moments, like when he completely forget that the Power Pack had actually aged into teens in the last 20+ years, something no one has been able to explain away so it basically just has to be ignored when reading his run). The guy gets a lot of work at Marvel, but that doesn't make him a good writer by any stretch, and I really haven't seen universal praise for him online. People are generally more of a fan of his then I am, but its not like he's treated as some untouchable writer.

Fraction is a person who gets writing assignments because of how long he's worked there more then his actual writing ability. I mean, he's better then Hickman or real hacks like Jason Aaron (Fraction has actually written some good comics), and he's not a piece of shit like Nick Spencer, but he is the most generic "acceptable" pick to write something that Marvel has.

 

[JD]

Hack like Jason Aaron? Now I'm getting even more confused.

 

[kirk55555]

Hack like Jason Aaron? Now I'm getting even more confused.

Well, Jason Aaron is my second most hated writer who is currently still working at Marvel after Nick Spencer (I say "still writing" because Joe Quesada, Chuck Austen and Scott Lobdell would all beat Aaron when it comes to how much I hate their work if they still did regular writing work for Marvel). He wrote the absolute worst run on Thor in the character's history (the run with Thor, Lil'l Thor and non canon Future Thor doing stupid shit), and then topped it by taking away thor's birthname (which I could literally write an essay on the stupidity of that) and gave it to the worst fucking "legacy" hero that the big two have ever done, Jane Thorster, aka the absolute worst "new" superhero Marvel has published since I've been reading comics.

So, yeah, I may think that writers like Fraction and Hickman suck, but Aaron is 1000x worse then either of them at their worst.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Aaron's dialogue when writing Star Wars was unbelievably good. That and Hulk are my only exposure to him (wasn't impressed by his Hulk) but I was shocked at how good he was with the Star Wars cast.

 

[JD]

Oh, right I forgot Aaron wrote the early issues of main SW title, those were awesome.
Is Kirk's reaction to these writers the average one?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

No, but it's a common vocal one. Jason Aaron has among Marvel's best-selling titles, so it's hard to imagine he's universally hated. I would say his Thor run is so well-acclaimed that I want to wait until I have time and actually read it from the beginning rather than jumping in now.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Is Kirk's reaction to these writers the average one?

Kirk's reaction to anything isn't an average one. If you actually want a fantastic review of anything, just take the complete opposite of what he's complaining about and you honestly get a fairly accurate view of what the product is really like.

I'm not even joking a little bit.

 

[JD]

I might have to go visit my sisters who live Seattle.
The Mueseum of Popular Culture AKA MOPOP in Seattle, has a huge Marvel exhibit opening on the 21st, called Marvel: Universe of Superheroes.
It will feature over 300 items, including things from the movies and comics, and will cover the entire history of Marvel comics. There will interactives, including one based on Iron Man's lab, and themed sections devoted to characters like Spider-Man, Black Panther, and Doctor Strange. It'll also have "a thrilling soundscape by composers Lorne Balfe and Hans Zimmer".

 

[TheSeeker]

I love what Aaron has done with Thor. He’s done some really interesting things with him.

 

[kirk55555]

Kirk's reaction to anything isn't an average one. If you actually want a fantastic review of anything, just take the complete opposite of what he's complaining about and you honestly get a fairly accurate view of what the product is really like.

I'm not even joking a little bit.

In that case, I'd love to hear you explain how crap like Frank Miller's The dark Knight Strikes Again, Holy terror and All Star Batman along with stuff like Chuck Austen's X-Men run, Scott Lobdell's Red Hood & the Outlaws, etc are all just great books specifically because I hate them. Most of those are universally reviled, but since I specifically dislike them you must love them.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

I honestly have not read any of those, but now look forward to tracking at least some of them down.

 

[JD]

In that case, I'd love to hear you explain how crap like Frank Miller's The dark Knight Strikes Again, Holy terror and All Star Batman along with stuff like Chuck Austen's X-Men run, Scott Lobdell's Red Hood & the Outlaws, etc are all just great books specifically because I hate them. Most of those are universally reviled, but since I specifically dislike them you must love them.

Well, there are a few things out there that are just so bad that even people like can't like them.

 

[kirk55555]

I honestly have not read any of those, but now look forward to tracking at least some of them down.

Well, if you like books that are literally just anti-Muslim propaganda done by a borderline senile asshole, you'll love Holy Terror. If you love sexism so rampant you just want to slap DC's editor in chief for letting the stories in question get published, then Miller's All Star Batman and Lobdell's Red Hood & the Outlaws will be right up your alley. Hell, sexism is only one of All Star batman's many well documented problems, so you'll get more bang for your buck. If you want what is widely considered one of the worst X-Men runs in the last few decades, then Chuck Austen's Batshit crazy (in a bad way) run is definitely worth your time.

I legitimately hope you do read them, because knowing someone is so contrary as to read absolute shit based on stuff I've said is absolutely hilarious.

Well, there are a few things out there that are just so bad that even people like can't like them.

Apparently not according to some people. Every time people say everything I hate must be good, I just laugh. I can name a huge number of stuff that I hate where I am in the majority with my opinion. I didn't even name any Mark Millar stuff, and that man wrote well known stories involving Marvel characters engaging in incest and cannibalism.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I honestly have not read any of those, but now look forward to tracking at least some of them down.

Holy Terror was intended as a Batman book but DC refused to let him do it. It's basically post 9/11 Frank Miller whose anger outweighs any creative contributions. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something redeeming in the layouts or panel design, but it's nothing compared to its venomous hatred and advocacy of violence towards muslims. All-Star Batman (I assume All-Star Batman and Robin) is another Frank Miller story. I honestly don't remember much about the criticism of this story compared to The Dark Knight Strikes Again, which has similar (but less extreme) problems with Holy Terror. The story started before 9/11 but was reworked for Miller to express his anger after those events. But I can't remember much about All-Star Batman and Robin when it comes to consensus criticism. I do believe Batman calls Robin retarded, though.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Holy Terror was intended as a Batman book but DC refused to let him do it. It's basically post 9/11 Frank Miller whose anger outweighs any creative contributions. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something redeeming in the layouts or panel design, but it's nothing compared to its venomous hatred and advocacy of violence towards muslims.

The most interesting thing about Holy Terror is how little Miller changed when it ceased to be a Batman project. There are pages where you can tell that Miller drew Batman instead of The Fixer or Catwoman instead of her analogue (I don't remember her name off-hand) and didn't bother to even disguise the fact later when it wasn't a Batman story anymore. Otherwise, I can't say anything positive about Holy Terror.

 

[kirk55555]

Holy Terror was intended as a Batman book but DC refused to let him do it. It's basically post 9/11 Frank Miller whose anger outweighs any creative contributions. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something redeeming in the layouts or panel design, but it's nothing compared to its venomous hatred and advocacy of violence towards muslims. All-Star Batman (I assume All-Star Batman and Robin) is another Frank Miller story. I honestly don't remember much about the criticism of this story compared to The Dark Knight Strikes Again, which has similar (but less extreme) problems with Holy Terror. The story started before 9/11 but was reworked for Miller to express his anger after those events. But I can't remember much about All-Star Batman and Robin when it comes to consensus criticism. I do believe Batman calls Robin retarded, though.

All Star Batman and Robin has many problems. Just for a little taste, here's a couple of pages of his attempt to write Wonder Woman: (spoilered for size)

Spoiler

The only officially published story with WW from DC that is even in the ballpark when it comes to writing her this badly is the elseworlds JLA: Act of God, and even it is less bad overall (but still really damn bad, but in a different way then this stuff).

Remember, this isn't a parody or a joke, its just Frank Miller showing how crazy he'd gotten. I could go on about things like Irish bartender ninja Black canary screwing Batman soon after meeting him, Batman being super abusive to Dick Grayson, Batman's fucking looney toons fight with Green Lantern and even into stuff like Vikki Vale talking out of her ass (and the really creepy script exert that shows how frank told Lee to draw the scene in question). The book isn't a racist tirade like Holy Terror, and Jim Lee is actually a good artist, so its technically less bad then Holy Terror. But its easily the worst Batman story DC has ever published, and I haven't even mentioned all of its problems, like the actual plot.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Oh, Frank Miller is a parody and a joke-- he just doesn't realize it.

 

[kirk55555]

For me, Holy Terror really took him out of the joke category into the crazy nutjob category. For as monumentally bad as All star Batman is, Holy Terror is on a different level and goes far beyond idiocy into being really fucked up.

 

[JD]

From what I've see, it looks like Scott Snyder was at least able to redeem the All-Star Batman title with his series.

 

[Relayer1]

I'm catching up (eventually) on a lot of Marvel and recently read Secret Empire. I may have missed something, but where did the Stark AI get the Mk IV suit from ?I

Anyhow, moving on....I just read Tony Stark #1.

My God that was bad.

That was world class bad...