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News Martin-Green: Star Trek Is About Universality

Up until now, I admit being perturbed, but it’s the next bit I’d love an apology for. You’ve made yourself comfy on the high ground while putting ugly words in my mouth, and wrongfully so. The idea that I was displeased with having anything but white men on the cast is your invention, and not appreciated. I need to be told, much to my presumed chagrin, that entertainment isn’t the domain of white guys anymore? I need to get with the times? I’m bellyaching that it’s not all white guys?
Yep, on all counts. I had a feeling that you really didn't understand what you were actually saying when you tied seeking and acquiring a diverse cast with taking precedent over consideration of the quality of the show. Whatever faults DSC had, seeking diversity was not what led to those problems.

This notion you have that DSC sucked because the producers were out seeking racial, and gender diversity rather than devoting that time (or, more time) to the quality of the scripts, makes no sense. "Diversity" and "quality" are not mutually exclusive things. They can both exist simultaneously. And just because you didn't like DSC's first season, it does not follow automatically, that the reason was the producer's efforts at seeking diversity. Or I don't know, maybe that's just your thing.

Annnnnnnnnnd he says it again:
At any given moment, when you prioritize choosing someone for their race instead of the quality of their character, you are just being political.
Your attempt at characterizing opening auditions and indeed seeking a diverse cast as racist, at this point, does not surprise me. And the little bigoted "conundrum" you present is quaint; diversity is race or gender based, so therefore, diversity itself is biased.

I have read this type of comment in this forum since it was created and several of the people who made the statement, like you, may not have understood exactly what they were really saying. And I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

Try to understand what I'm saying here; seeking diversity in casting has NOTHING to do with the quality of the production unless you pick the wrong actors. If producers don't SEEK diversity, casts will invariably end up with all, or mostly all, white males. Thus, your statement equates to, "forget diversity", which means all white male casts.
MLK knew to judge people by their character, so maybe Pointing out racism is racist you should as well. :). You are championing diversity OVER quality, so don’t pretend to mean thePointi opposite.
The above comment so fits the tenor of the times. "Seeking diversity is itself racist". You probably also believe that pointing out racism is racist, right? I think this pretty much some things up here.
 
The idea that you can’t have diversity and quality says a lot more about the person saying it than they realize. Quality can be quite subjective, so that says to me that anyone who dares to say that out loud probably just hates to see other races, genders, sexualities or whatever else without any thought as to why. It’s because they’re a bigot, but they don’t see it that way because they think the way they feel is completely normal. It’s not and they should keep that shit to themselves. If you have a problem with that, rethink your life before complaining to me. I have no interest in that misguided belief.


Is DISCO the best show on TV? No and that has nothing to do with casting decisions. It’s mostly writing, but Trek shows are usually fairly uneven at first. TNG had two awful first seasons, only becoming the show we remember around season three. But we don’t judge them by a single season. DISCO will find its feet and given that the first season wasn’t as god awful as TNG’s it may end up being one of the stronger Trek shows. Everyone involved seems to want to make the best show they can and I honestly think the first season was a mixture of the shakeup of losing the show runner and maybe being afraid they wouldn’t get a second season. Now they’re pretty set and know it has a future.
 
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hence my criticisms of both VOY and ENT. For me both are notable for a lack of courage in their writing and casting, their lack of substance.

Tuvok is my all time favourite character of Trek. I even look to Chakotay with his Maori-esque moko and it hits a note. If Voyager Trek makes a social commentary it is one I recognise as family more than anything. As for Enterprise I am really enjoying a first viewing. It is exploration. I wouldn't (again personally) criticise either of these for their casting. If they have lacked substance then I must be shallow because I really do ponder the episodes from Tuvix to Equinox.
We finally agree on something, sort of. Tuvok is not my all time favorite Trek character, but he is my second favorite Vulcan behind Leonard Nimoy's Spock. Tim Russ used to live near me and I would run into him from time to time at the Tar Pits Park. He is really a nice guy. He loved Tuvok and got a good laugh when I told him about the controversy generated by a "black Vulcan", on AOL. He laughed and said, "Tuvok isn't black, he's Vulcan".

As for substance in Ent, don't know how far you've gotten, and I'm not going to spoil anything, but the last couple of episodes in season 4 make the most visually profound and SUBTLE statements about race that I have ever seen in a Star Trek episode, IMO. :)
 
We finally agree on something, sort of. Tuvok is not my all time favorite Trek character, but he is my second favorite Vulcan behind Leonard Nimoy's Spock. Tim Russ used to live near me and I would run into him from time to time at the Tar Pits Park. He is really a nice guy. He loved Tuvok and got a good laugh when I told him about the controversy generated by a "black Vulcan", on AOL. He laughed and said, "Tuvok isn't black, he's Vulcan".

As for substance in Ent, don't know how far you've gotten, and I'm not going to spoil anything, but the last couple of episodes in season 4 make the most visually profound and SUBTLE statements about race that I have ever seen in a Star Trek episode, IMO. :)
I must admit I'm envious that you have met Tim Russ. Thank you for sharing that story! The friendship between Tuvok and Janeway I look for in scenes. Like when he didn't want to leave her in Year of Hell. She touches his face and they hug :wah: It gets me every time (just writing about it). I was watching Voyager yesterday where Janeway says I already have a man and grabs Tuvok's hand and... yeah, you had to be there :lol:

(Just into the first season of Enterprise so far).
 
I find it really sad that Trek fans would even find a black Vulcan controversial, but I’m not surprised at this point. If we had the Internet in the 60s, we’d probably have rants about how Uhura and Sulu were ruining the show and the Kirk/Uhura kiss would cause a huge shitstorm.
 
I must admit I'm envious that you have met Tim Russ. Thank you for sharing that story! The friendship between Tuvok and Janeway I look for in scenes. Like when he didn't want to leave her in Year of Hell. She touches his face and they hug :wah: It gets me every time (just writing about it). I was watching Voyager yesterday where Janeway says I already have a man and grabs Tuvok's hand and... yeah, you had to be there :lol:

(Just into the first season of Enterprise so far).
You could always go to a convention. He goes to a lot of them. I got to see Mulgrew a few years ago, she’s wonderful.
 
I think TV has proven you can have diversity and have good TV and you can have it and have bad tv. I mean just look at the two most Iconic moments in Trek History. The first Intericial KIss and the black/white aliens with the colors on both sides. Both came from bad episodes. Hollywood can be strange. Trek is know for being progressive and socially relevant but it was created by a guy who had some very deep sexual issues not to mention greed and ego in Roddenberry and Berman also seems to have not been all that great of a person. Then you look at someone like Kevin Smith who seems to be one of nicest people but never really got to have much success once he moved from his Jay and Silent Bob era of films. The question people should be asking about the people running the show instead of trying to guess motives is ask whether or not you think they have the talent to make a great show. I have some doubts even if they are the nicest people in the world who want to do the morally right thing and have diversity. Forget about their motives. Nobody will ever know that no matter how many speeches they make. At least not until some future date when nobody has any invested interest in spinning the show because that's what you got to do to get people to stay interested or come and watch. What does everyone think about their talent as far as we can judge right now?

My bet is that if Fuller was still running things the show would be just as diverse yet many of the complaints would not be where they are today. Of course you would still have some racist and sexist and the nitpicking is always going to be their but I think their would be a big difference in overall perspective on the show. Canon issues would be easier to dismiss and interviews by actors who say things that some will disagree would be easier to ignore. I also think a great deal of complaints would be gone even if was something as simple as having the crew wear uniforms that looked more like "TOS" unifroms and the KLingons lookedl ike Klingons. I think fans are always start off skeptical but they usually come around and I think the show while not great would actually be more loved because it is good enough for those fans to give a pass if it looked more like how they think Trek should look. The show is better than "Enterprise" and almost as good as "Voyager" and the first season was as good as some of the lesser seasons of the other shows. For a season 1 that would be enough if they had faith in the people running it hat they can take what has been done and improve it. I don't think people have that trust. I don't think they trust CBS because of Fuller being fired and they don't trust the showrunners because they don't have a track record for starters like Fuller but also because they haven't dared to come out and talk about their mistakes. I think fans are expecting them to be a little more candid but I wonder if that has ever been the case with Trek while a show was running. I mean we know a great deal about the behind scenes stuff from all the other Trek's so I think that creates that impression it was always like that but I don't think it was true.


Jason
 
You could always go to a convention. He goes to a lot of them. I got to see Mulgrew a few years ago, she’s wonderful.
I would like that very much. We live close to Brisbane and the Convention Centre, not too far away from the Gold Coast. Hubby has some friends who also have daleks and they go to Supanova.

Kate Mulgrew is awesome. :adore:
 
I would like that very much. We live close to Brisbane and the Convention Centre, not too far away from the Gold Coast. Hubby has some friends who also have daleks and they go to Supanova.

Kate Mulgrew is awesome. :adore:

From what I can tell Tim Russ seems to be a regular face on the convention circuit, he's pretty interested generally in meeting the fans and being involved in fan run projects. Have you checked his website for appearances?
 
From what I can tell Tim Russ seems to be a regular face on the convention circuit, he's pretty interested generally in meeting the fans and being involved in fan run projects. Have you checked his website for appearances?
To be honest that whole world is new to me. The last convention I went to was a craft one and I was in it for the burgers. However, I should be more adventurous. We do get famous people come here.
 
The idea that you can’t have diversity and quality says a lot more about the person saying it than they realize. Quality can be quite subjective, so that says to me that anyone who dares to say that out loud probably just hates to see other races, genders, sexualities or whatever else without any thought as to why. It’s because they’re a bigot, but they don’t see it that way because they think the way they feel is completely normal. It’s not and they should keep that shit to themselves. If you have a problem with that, rethink your life before complaining to me. I have no interest in that misguided belief.


Is DISCO the best show on TV? No and that has nothing to do with casting decisions. It’s mostly writing, but Trek shows are usually fairly uneven at first. TNG had two awful first seasons, only becoming the show we remember around season three. But we don’t judge them by a single season. DISCO will find its feet and given that the first season wasn’t as god awful as TNG’s it may end up being one of the stronger Trek shows. Everyone involved seems to want to make the best show they can and I honestly think the first season was a mixture of the shakeup of losing the show runner and maybe being afraid they wouldn’t get a second season. Now they’re pretty set and know it has a future.

I’m really hoping that you aren’t referring to me, Possum. As a moderator here, I’d like to think you read my thoughts and considered what I was getting at without leaping to ugly conclusions. I most certainly did not suggest that quality and diversity are in any way mutually exclusive, and if you thought that was implied in my words, then Id appreciate you addressing it directly in conversation rather than accepting the deeply warped perspective of some not-so-critical thinkers here who have said some lousy, undeserved things. It sounds as though you may be content with their misreading and demonizing of my words, and also content to call me a bigot. I don’t believe a careful reading of my comments could lead an adult to that conclusion. Something ugly, and prejudice, slanderous and closed minded happened here, on your watch, and I was on the receiving end of it. If you support the accusing side of this little exchange, then Id like to know it. I am going to clarify things a bit, with what will hopefully be my last exchange with gblews ever.
 
gblews, you sure you don’t want to try exercising some of your superior morals and stop hurling insults? You consistently and completely miss my points, then invent new ones in their place. Rather than address my actual words, you make up statements that are completely at odds with my words and thoughts, and then double down on condemning me for perceived social crimes. All the talking down from the righteous to the morally deficient is just cheap virtue signaling and social justice garbage. You don’t earn an intelligent conversation with that behavior, or make the world a better place, or spread any understanding, you just dump on people to feel smug and superior. I’m deeply unimpressed that you have no better thoughts (or reading retention, for that matter), but for those who care, I will break a few things down. Your response is not solicited, because I don’t think you are going to wise up any time soon, or stop with the outrageous accusations. Go give yourself a medal for moral excellence.

Can a show be diverse AND good? Yeah. (Duh). Does diverse equal good? No. (Duh). Is STD weak because it is diverse? No. Would it be inherently stronger if it were less diverse? No. Does “diverse” mean “as few white people and straight guys as possible?” No. Some people need to look up the word. Diversity and quality are not mutually exclusive, you lecture. Pretty sure I said that too. Can a show have a social agenda and still be good? Yeah, like every other Trek show ever. Star there.

Open auditions was a step in the wrong direction, and we should’ve had a white cast? THAT is what you gleaned from my words?! Is that a joke? Well, I guess if I’d ever said anything like that, then I’d be a bigot, but since I didn’t, you can take the insult and cram it. It’s an insult to anyone reading your words, how quickly you leap to a conclusion that suits your moral perch. Preferring people because of their ethnicity or sexuality is prejudice, and judging people on the content of their character is always appropriate. Obviously there are other issues, like marketability, but taking exception to ACTUAL equality is putting YOU under that “bigot” label you just love to hurl when you need to feel superior, or just can’t manage a civil conversation.

Next you tell me, with two layers of irony, that it is I who doesn’t understand my own words, but you’ll give me the benefit of the doubt. What in the world benefit of the doubt have you ever given? You’ve leaped to ugly accusations and hurtful labels at every turn, never guessing for a moment that you’d missed my point, or even MAYBE misunderstood it, or that I had anything worth saying. You didn’t make any attempt to clarify, just demonize, with extreme prejudice. With your magnanimous self-pat on the back, you go back to putting words in my mouth, now with quotations! “Forget diversity!” You imagine I say, neatly missing every point I’ve made, and still comfy with your bizarre understanding of the word’s meaning. Now you say I want an all white cast. Can you fathom how someone, (let’s say just as righteous as you if that were possible), might just love to hear that ugly garbage placed in their mouths? You sure have a lot of criticisms of all the awful things I never said or even thought.

Next you’ve got the nerve to further put words in mouth with a little box out containing a very strange quote that I absolutely never said. “Pointing out racism is racist”? I never said that. You put those stupid thoughts in a little box and SAID that I did, but I didn’t. I said “MLK knew to judge people by their character, so maybe you should as well. :). You are championing diversity OVER quality, so don’t pretend to mean the opposite.” You are asserting that diversity and quality are inseparable concepts. Hogwash. If diversity made things great, then STD should be amazing. There are great eps of Trek that are just some white guys talking. Are they great eps BECAUSE they are white? No, that’s just stupid. Who would say that? (And who would have the gall to say that somebody else said that when they absolutely didn’t?) There are terrible eps of STD that are heavy on the inclusion side. Are they inherently bad BECAUSE they have a diverse cast? Of course not. Why would you think that I would mean that? You don’t even know me, but you figured out I’m rotten to the core, huh? Have I answered enough of these possible permutations that we can move on? The idea that I didn’t aggressively praise the “diversity” of the show, and that equates to my intolerance is a cheap trick.

People are so caught up in how wonderful it is to have society progressing on social issues, (and yeah, it IS wonderful, -thanks for the virtuous applause-) that it becomes a creepy sort of PC mass fetish. Not only is it perfectly acceptable amongst “enlightened people” to be a minority, to some people it’s vastly preferable. If I don’t literally PREFER gays and minorities (which sounds like prejudice to me), then that must naturally mean that I prefer racial purity, and I’m called a bigot. Well, I DONT prefer any particular race or sex to be in great Star Trek. I prefer great Star Trek. When this mediocre show has a huge agenda and not much else, I call them on blowing their priorities, and on failing to do what Trek has done well in the past: make inclusiveness organic, without making it the defining quality of a show with very few defining qualities. I call them out for succeeding at almost nothing BUT diversity, and that equates somehow to “I hate non whites.” Thanks a bunch for the intelligent discourse.

There’s a thing now that you’d love called “The Future is Female.” It’s another insidious way to allow sexism in a seemingly righteous direction, without noticing how offensive it is in EVERY direction. It should’ve been called “Spotlight on the amazing women of the future!” Or something like that. Inclusive, see? Not implying that women are superior or should dominate, just celebrating the, for what they are. There’s t shirts that say “The Force is Female.” You have any problem with that? You should. It’s obviously sexist. A better world, like Gene invented, needs to find better balance, not a brand new imbalance defined by new intolerances. “The Future is masculine” or “The Force is Masculine” are obviously stupid ideas, and the opposite are as well.

Instead of getting my point, or even trying to, or giving me any benefit of the doubt, you just insult me, condemn me, label me, misunderstand and misquote me. What a tolerant and progressive thinker you are! You’ve been a real jerk about it, and I’m tired of having to explain my way out of your crass oversimplifications. You’ve made this discussion a farce.
 
gblews, you sure you don’t want to try exercising some of your superior morals and stop hurling insults? You consistently and completely miss my points, then invent new ones in their place. Rather than address my actual words, you make up statements that are completely at odds with my words and thoughts, and then double down on condemning me for perceived social crimes. All the talking down from the righteous to the morally deficient is just cheap virtue signaling and social justice garbage. You don’t earn an intelligent conversation with that behavior, or make the world a better place, or spread any understanding, you just dump on people to feel smug and superior. I’m deeply unimpressed that you have no better thoughts (or reading retention, for that matter), but for those who care, I will break a few things down. Your response is not solicited, because I don’t think you are going to wise up any time soon, or stop with the outrageous accusations. Go give yourself a medal for moral excellence.

Can a show be diverse AND good? Yeah. (Duh). Does diverse equal good? No. (Duh). Is STD weak because it is diverse? No. Would it be inherently stronger if it were less diverse? No. Does “diverse” mean “as few white people and straight guys as possible?” No. Some people need to look up the word. Diversity and quality are not mutually exclusive, you lecture. Pretty sure I said that too. Can a show have a social agenda and still be good? Yeah, like every other Trek show ever. Star there.

Open auditions was a step in the wrong direction, and we should’ve had a white cast? THAT is what you gleaned from my words?! Is that a joke? Well, I guess if I’d ever said anything like that, then I’d be a bigot, but since I didn’t, you can take the insult and cram it. It’s an insult to anyone reading your words, how quickly you leap to a conclusion that suits your moral perch. Preferring people because of their ethnicity or sexuality is prejudice, and judging people on the content of their character is always appropriate. Obviously there are other issues, like marketability, but taking exception to ACTUAL equality is putting YOU under that “bigot” label you just love to hurl when you need to feel superior, or just can’t manage a civil conversation.

Next you tell me, with two layers of irony, that it is I who doesn’t understand my own words, but you’ll give me the benefit of the doubt. What in the world benefit of the doubt have you ever given? You’ve leaped to ugly accusations and hurtful labels at every turn, never guessing for a moment that you’d missed my point, or even MAYBE misunderstood it, or that I had anything worth saying. You didn’t make any attempt to clarify, just demonize, with extreme prejudice. With your magnanimous self-pat on the back, you go back to putting words in my mouth, now with quotations! “Forget diversity!” You imagine I say, neatly missing every point I’ve made, and still comfy with your bizarre understanding of the word’s meaning. Now you say I want an all white cast. Can you fathom how someone, (let’s say just as righteous as you if that were possible), might just love to hear that ugly garbage placed in their mouths? You sure have a lot of criticisms of all the awful things I never said or even thought.

Next you’ve got the nerve to further put words in mouth with a little box out containing a very strange quote that I absolutely never said. “Pointing out racism is racist”? I never said that. You put those stupid thoughts in a little box and SAID that I did, but I didn’t. I said “MLK knew to judge people by their character, so maybe you should as well. :). You are championing diversity OVER quality, so don’t pretend to mean the opposite.” You are asserting that diversity and quality are inseparable concepts. Hogwash. If diversity made things great, then STD should be amazing. There are great eps of Trek that are just some white guys talking. Are they great eps BECAUSE they are white? No, that’s just stupid. Who would say that? (And who would have the gall to say that somebody else said that when they absolutely didn’t?) There are terrible eps of STD that are heavy on the inclusion side. Are they inherently bad BECAUSE they have a diverse cast? Of course not. Why would you think that I would mean that? You don’t even know me, but you figured out I’m rotten to the core, huh? Have I answered enough of these possible permutations that we can move on? The idea that I didn’t aggressively praise the “diversity” of the show, and that equates to my intolerance is a cheap trick.

People are so caught up in how wonderful it is to have society progressing on social issues, (and yeah, it IS wonderful, -thanks for the virtuous applause-) that it becomes a creepy sort of PC mass fetish. Not only is it perfectly acceptable amongst “enlightened people” to be a minority, to some people it’s vastly preferable. If I don’t literally PREFER gays and minorities (which sounds like prejudice to me), then that must naturally mean that I prefer racial purity, and I’m called a bigot. Well, I DONT prefer any particular race or sex to be in great Star Trek. I prefer great Star Trek. When this mediocre show has a huge agenda and not much else, I call them on blowing their priorities, and on failing to do what Trek has done well in the past: make inclusiveness organic, without making it the defining quality of a show with very few defining qualities. I call them out for succeeding at almost nothing BUT diversity, and that equates somehow to “I hate non whites.” Thanks a bunch for the intelligent discourse.

There’s a thing now that you’d love called “The Future is Female.” It’s another insidious way to allow sexism in a seemingly righteous direction, without noticing how offensive it is in EVERY direction. It should’ve been called “Spotlight on the amazing women of the future!” Or something like that. Inclusive, see? Not implying that women are superior or should dominate, just celebrating the, for what they are. There’s t shirts that say “The Force is Female.” You have any problem with that? You should. It’s obviously sexist. A better world, like Gene invented, needs to find better balance, not a brand new imbalance defined by new intolerances. “The Future is masculine” or “The Force is Masculine” are obviously stupid ideas, and the opposite are as well.

Instead of getting my point, or even trying to, or giving me any benefit of the doubt, you just insult me, condemn me, label me, misunderstand and misquote me. What a tolerant and progressive thinker you are! You’ve been a real jerk about it, and I’m tired of having to explain my way out of your crass oversimplifications. You’ve made this discussion a farce.

I would gently suggest the way you are presenting doesn't entirely fit with the way you wish to present....
 
I find it really sad that Trek fans would even find a black Vulcan controversial, but I’m not surprised at this point. If we had the Internet in the 60s, we’d probably have rants about how Uhura and Sulu were ruining the show and the Kirk/Uhura kiss would cause a huge shitstorm.

I never met anyone who had an issue with a black Vulcan, but I did know people who complained they didn't give Tim Russ a bowl cut wig with straight hair.

For that matter, it stuck in my craw that Tuvok's wife had straight hair despite being played by a black actress. But more generally, I've never really understood why Vulcan women (particularly, but not limited to T'Pol) are shown paying any attention to their appearance besides basic hygiene, since it hardly seems to fit in with the Vulcan mindset.
 
I've never really understood why Vulcan women (particularly, but not limited to T'Pol) are shown paying any attention to their appearance besides basic hygiene, since it hardly seems to fit in with the Vulcan mindset.
Vulcans still have art, music, fashion, poetry, elaborately designed architecture and ships instead of just basic functional shapes, and other traits of cultural and personal expression, so it's not all just flat logic with no creativity or concern about appearance.

Hell, even the Borg have a logo, some funky non-functional ship designs, and their own cool font and user interface, 'cause it's all about brand recognition. ;)

Was it ever clarified anywhere (production-wise, not in the show) if Spock's eye shadow was supposed to be indicative of his natural skin tone over the eyes (perhaps because of the double eyelid) or that it was meant to represent him wearing makeup in-universe?
 
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Was it ever clarified anywhere (production-wise, not in the show) if Spock's eye shadow was supposed to be indicative of his natural skin tone over the eyes (perhaps because of the double eyelid) or that it was meant to represent him wearing makeup in-universe?

I think there's a tie in novel that explains how he never truly got over his teen goth phase. :D

(Which he initially got into because his sister kept playing The Cure records :whistle:)
 
I think there's a tie in novel that explains how he never truly got over his teen goth phase. :D

(Which he initially got into because his sister kept playing The Cure records :whistle:)
I pictured him as more of a Surak and the Banshees or No-Joy Division fan, myself.
 
I never met anyone who had an issue with a black Vulcan, but I did know people who complained they didn't give Tim Russ a bowl cut wig with straight hair.

For that matter, it stuck in my craw that Tuvok's wife had straight hair despite being played by a black actress. But more generally, I've never really understood why Vulcan women (particularly, but not limited to T'Pol) are shown paying any attention to their appearance besides basic hygiene, since it hardly seems to fit in with the Vulcan mindset.
Logic does not preclude having an aesthetic sense.

Kor
 
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