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Manuevers

GeekUSACarl

The Last Starfighter
Fleet Captain
I've never been a fan of Voyager, but since the new Discovery has come out I have decided to rewatch the shows. I'm finding that I've been very wrong about Voyager and enjoying the show very much.

In the episode Maneuvers, Chackotay steals a shuttle to deal with Seska and the technology she stole, causing the crew to go on a rescue mission further endangering their lives and the risk of more stolen technology.

Janeway is faced with some interesting dilemmas, from loyalty to trust within the chain of command and the perception unto the crew.

Just seems to me that putting Chakotay on report isn't really enough. After watching I feel she should have demoted Chakotay and promoted Tuvok to first officer. I've never served in any navy or military of any kind.

Am I off base on my opinion?
 
Good question to which I can't give you an answer.

However, I feel that Janeway wanted to give Chakotay a second chance since up to that point he had proven quite loyal to Starfleet even with his Maquis background. I think Janeway wanted their relationship to work (I'm talking about the work relationship between the Captain and her XO, not a romantic one) and she wanted to show Chakotay that she was willing to forgive him if he continued to be the "good boy" he'd been up to that point. Also, in contrast to Tom in THIRTY DAYS, Chakotay did not disobey a direct order from the Captain and what he did was not violating the Prime Directive (in contrast to Tom). So I can actually understand why she didn't demote Chak but demoted Tommy.

On a somewhat different note, it is good to see how many people come on this thread telling us that initially they didn't like VOY but on a rewatch they find it a lot more interesting. Glad to see you are one of them. I hope you'll enjoy the rest of the show, especially that most fans think it really picks up after Seven joins the crew.
 
I actually tended to like the borg, species 8472 stuff that happens after 7 less, though I liked 7's character,
 
Well ... the Borg will feature pretty heavily on the show from the second half of Season 3 on ... Off the top of my head I would say there are at least 15 episodes which are about the Borg and an other 15-20 in which they make smaller appearances. In other episodes you will learn so much about Seven's "ex-Borgness" that by the end of the show you will feel like an expert on them.

As for 8472, they appear less and are talked about less, I give you that. I also wish we'd seen more of them.
However, you'll have the Hirogen (my fav species) and I think they are interesting. Plus there are quite a lot of enemies that appear once or twice only but are equally fascinating. For example the Voth on DISTANT ORIGIN (Season 3).
 
True but that, again, had nothing to do with the PM ...
Or is everyone here saying that Janeway is more forgiving with Chakotay than with everyone else? :D

Let's be honest, Thomas Eugene, Janeway was clearly more indulgent - and even, complacent -, with him than with everyone else, leaving him a great flexibility to maneuver*, maybe too much, IMHO, knowing who he was (not only a rebel but the leader of a Maquis cellule, who is wanted by the Federation & Starlfeet, that she represents) and his power to harm - failing to take the reins of Voyager -, he was able to create some mess if he really wanted, especially with his training & B'Elena Torres's genius. Don't forget that Manuevers took place in second season, when both crew still learnt to work together.

(* the other member of the crew to have benefited from this privilege was the Doctor, who was able to defy all rules of protocol and take positions endangering
more or less consciously, the crew and the vessel. And since he was never been sanctioned, he continued more and more!)

I completely agree with you, GeekUSACarl, about the fact that Janeway should get tough towards Chakotay in Manuevers, even if demoting him would have been useless as seeing as his rank and function are anything but official -> you cannot demote someone from a rank and a position that he does not really have, right?! -> I remind that he resigned from his Starfleet commission of Lt Comm. so, in Voyager timeframe, he lost the right to wear Starfleet pips and be called by his former rank and he wasn't the leader of his own crew anymore, right the moment he accepted to collaborate with Janeway. As for the said position of XO, it was a tactical move (and the fact that Chakotay was familiar with Starfleet protocol and a experienced officer were a big advantage) from Janeway (taken at the expense of Tuvok, his faithful companion -> I guess she knew that Tuvok would understand the why and how of her decision and he did not take umbrage and then, I like to think that Tuvok was her real XO with all qualities requested: loyal, attentive, knowing how to listen and advise without cause or contradict everytime and 100% Starfleet), to alienate the other members of the Val Jean.
Unfortunately, regardless Chakotay's attitude in varied episodes (Manuevers, Scorpion, Equinox), Janeway had no choice but to keep Chakotay in that position because, she needed to keep relying of the collaboration of the Maquis rebels, I guess... even if from s3, Voyager had one and only Starfleet crew! :whistle:

Back to Manuevers : Chakotay's actions were not only reckless (stealing and damaging a shuttle -> I guess that when we are lost in middle of nowhere, all material resources, like shuttles, are valuable, right?!) and dangerous, as seeing as he forced Janeway to come to his rescue (of course, he could say that he expressly asked her not to come after him but damn it, if he knew so well as he claimed since early, he should have known that she would never have let him behind, he or any member of his crew. So, in forcing her to go and retrieve him, she endangered her crew and the vessel putting the future and the rest of the journey incidentally..
But the real problem behing Chakotay's action, was the reason for which he lost his mind and did anything: it wasn't to play "the knight in shining armor" but because of a wounded ego/pride (even B'Elena immediately understood it). :crazy:

Finally, it is quite ironic is that Chakotay accused Janeway to lead a vendetta towards Ramsom and acting in a reckless/dangerous way in Equinox but at least, for me, her reasons were a little more honorable than Chakotay's. She wanted to punish Ransom for his betrayal of Starfleet principles/ethics and recover Seven/ the Doctor, while Chakotay, chased Seska with a wounded pride, to do battle with her and to show her of what he's made of.
And if we talk about ways used by both: Chakotay stole a shuttle, played with security system to cover his trail, endangered Voyager's crew and was ready to use physical threat and even violence with his fists (besides, I note that he does not seem to bother to use these techniques to obtain informations or to remind who is the boss : cf Dalby, Tom) while Janeway launched her ship at full speed, using all torpedos available as she was entitled as Captain of her vessel and used psychological pressure on one of rebel officer to get information, which is not prohibited by the code of conduct. but , the use of violence, yes and Chakotay does not seem to bother to use physical threat and even his fists : cf to Dalby). And to say about his attitude in "A small step", where he showed abuse of power, despite Janeway's order, just to reach his goal, endangering the away team composed of Seven and Tom.

That's why, I find particularly inappropriate Chakotay's comment/speech to Janeway in Equinox, while we look at his behaviour in some situations. He too had his moments of madness, too often moulted by a selfish will and pride, besides.

I know that my comment risks to heat certain of you so, let's go for a good beating in good standing! :whistle::p:D
 
Very well presented set of comments, it was an intriguing outlook and gives me a good deal to think about as I go through the show.
 
The last time, I typed too quickly my comment. I wanted to write...

"And what to say about Chakotay's attitude in "A Small Step", where he clearly disobeyed to Janeway's order (once more) when she ordered to the away team to come back immediately, when the situation began to be out of control (and the risk to see the Delta Flyer getting caught/destructed without any possibility of extracting too high), his abuse of power towards Tom & Seven when these latest tried to act quickly to bring the vessel away from the dangerous zone. In the end, it was he who was injured and missed the opportunity to touch his dream."

Note also that for the same ‎misdemeanors (disobedience of captain's orders*; violation of Prime Directives principles and endangering the crew and the ship), commited in a quadrant under administrative management of the Federation/Starfleet, the people concerned would be worth to face a court-martial for Starfleet officers and in all cases (= everyone), a long stay in prison (for the former members of the Maquis & Tom, it could be a VERY VERY extended stay, according to their past!) . But maybe more serious, would be the consequences for Janeway. Indeed, she could be logically challenged by a panel of admirals/captains on her credibility about her crew management & her authority** (seriously, she was very lucky not to have to manage a crisis with the rest of the Starfleet crew, given the free pass she granted to senior officers staff!).

* only if Janeway reported them or if Tuvok or anybody else mentionned the facts.
** she would be inevitably questioned about the true nature of her relationship with Chakotay. I mean, 1) how, on one side, can she makes respected in a certain way, the balance of power on a professional side: Chakotay as XO, is subject to her direct orders, as Captain, throughout the 7 seasons, though some occasionally power struggle /passive-agressive exchanges, mainly due to the fact that one is stuck to Starfleet rules/principles while the other, though being a former Starfleet officer himslef, tends to use all means and circonstances to reach the goal). In the end, the relationship went smoothly and Janeway managed to impose her strategy/tactics/delivery to her XO. and 2) on another side, on a more personal level, Janeway seems under Chakotay's spell, flattering him, apolgizing for a particular reaction she would have, accepting to answer to his flirtiation in first years of their collaboration then treating him with a certain loving affection as if they were intimate (briefing/debriefings, diners hold in her quarters, at candle lights), while in fact, they were definitively not. It projected a wrong message : or Chakotay is her XO by duty and Janeway treats him as such, what doesn't prevent a a friendly relationship like Janeway/Tuvok, or he is her buddy / BFF but in this case, she doesn't involve him in ship's business. And as for punishing him, the brig without any visit + info on what happens while Tuvok takes the seat of XO.

Same for her senior staff, they are no longer children and are perfectly able to understand when they act badly. In this case, they must also be able to accept being punished, especially the Doctor (who could be shut a couple of days or some change to his matrice/program could be brought), Seven (who ended to hate being alone, could spend some time in her zone without any visit), B'Elena (who could stand a couple of days/weeks in a brig in a spartan comfort & without Tom & Harry's visit), right?! As for Tom (less credit for food/present and holo time) and Harry (formal blame + a certain time without attending senior staff meeting).
‎This may be of little things but this could prevent them to do it again in a near future.
 
Well I'm now a fair bit into season 3, and though I've seen every episode of the show a couple times I am starting to notice something extra about her sensibilities with discipline.

I think the criticisms some have about her is accurate, that she can be inconsistent, though I wouldn't always agree that she is so inconsistent it's annoying. Rather I find her to be very situational and lets be honest, almost every situation that crew is in has no consistency. I dunno if it's just me being older and I'm lightening up or whatever but it's bothering me less now and I can now find her not being so harsh on Chakotay less weird or odd.
 
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