Spoilers Lord of the Rings TV series

[mswood]

In this series, Sauron supposedly had a child, whom Adar killed, which is definitely not from Tolkien's legendarium. I don't really care what Amazon makes up for the Second Age as long as they don't pretend it's canon. What's been shown so far doesn't fit with what Tolkien published in either the Appendices or The Silmarillion. To me, it's just expensive fan fiction. I wish it were a lot better, but I fear we're going to get more of the same. I'd like to stop paying Amazon money, but I need them for other things, so I'll just enjoy the thought of Bezos uselessly burning money.

I am sorry but where in Rings of Power does Halbrand ever mention having a child?

The only mention I can find even close is not made by Halbrand. When Hallbrand asks if Adar recognizes him, the answer is no. Hilbrand's expression is a little confusing here. But he doesn't appear to be pissed about the lack of recognition. But he then pull back to kill him. And only stops when Galadriel orders him to stop. And here is where he is struggling. Fighting against his own desires.

Now Adar sees that struggle and tried to push his buttons. Did I harm someone you cared for? A woman? Perhaps a child. We see Halbrand is still struggling, but he pulls back.

Halbrand has three interest here.

1. if Adar recognizes him his game is over. Secret out. Halbrand for that reason would be wise to kill him before anyone can question him. Or before any aspect of his behavior sparks recollection.

2. Adar (who to the best of our knowledge is fairly honest in his dealings) states he killed Sauron. And while the show is nor required to follow the text (as this is an adaption), Sauron can have his physical form destroyed. So Adar might have betrayed him and killed him. Meaning you might very much want to end Adar's existence.

3. And finally he is trying a different path, one where he wants Galadriel to be part of it, and to start his path to power in a different less direct way. If he wants to continue that path, and stay on Galadriel's good graces he needs to spare Adar's life at least for the moment.

Thats the struggle. To kill the being who destroyed (and betrayed) him. Are to pare him at least temporarily to stay true to his current path.

The child or the woman is just Adar trying to attempt a reason that would push a South Lander, who seems to know Adar into a killing blow.

 

[Adaptive Manipulator]

I am sorry but where in Rings of Power does Halbrand ever mention having a child?

The only mention I can find even close is not made by Halbrand. When Hallbrand asks if Adar recognizes him, the answer is no. Hilbrand's expression is a little confusing here. But he doesn't appear to be pissed about the lack of recognition. But he then pull back to kill him. And only stops when Galadriel orders him to stop. And here is where he is struggling. Fighting against his own desires.

Now Adar sees that struggle and tried to push his buttons. Did I harm someone you cared for? A woman? Perhaps a child. We see Halbrand is still struggling, but he pulls back.

Halbrand has three interest here.

1. if Adar recognizes him his game is over. Secret out. Halbrand for that reason would be wise to kill him before anyone can question him. Or before any aspect of his behavior sparks recollection.

2. Adar (who to the best of our knowledge is fairly honest in his dealings) states he killed Sauron. And while the show is nor required to follow the text (as this is an adaption), Sauron can have his physical form destroyed. So Adar might have betrayed him and killed him. Meaning you might very much want to end Adar's existence.

3. And finally he is trying a different path, one where he wants Galadriel to be part of it, and to start his path to power in a different less direct way. If he wants to continue that path, and stay on Galadriel's good graces he needs to spare Adar's life at least for the moment.

Thats the struggle. To kill the being who destroyed (and betrayed) him. Are to pare him at least temporarily to stay true to his current path.

The child or the woman is just Adar trying to attempt a reason that would push a South Lander, who seems to know Adar into a killing blow.

Sauron having has a child is a rumour about a plot point in the second season. It might well not be accurate, but several of the other rumours are turning out to be correct. I think it's not quite as dumb an idea as the Rube Goldberg switch to explode Mt Doom or making the Númenóreans hate Elves because they might take their jobs.

 

[mswood]

Ok, I was like what the hell was I missing.

And I don't thank the show ever states the Númenóreans hate Elves because they might take their jobs. But it would be a very valid fear for some. How do you compete with a race that has eons of experience. Is stronger faster, of sharper sense, and has less need of sleep. Now a tradesperson using it as a rally cry to work a crowd. Yeah, play on people's fears. That's absolutely logical. You might want their immortality for your own, but the idea of a larger elven presence in this world on their island, thats an immediate threat to food on your table, and your own self worth.

 

[Adaptive Manipulator]

The first season had some dude in the agora of Armenelos declaim his fear of the Elves taking their jobs after Galadriel shows up, but wants to leave. She has absolutely no interest in hanging around, but wants to continue her search for Sauron. According to The Akallabêth and the Appendices, the Númenóreans feared death and as a result envied the deathless - Elves, Valar and Maiar. They also resented not being allowed to venture to Aman. These are primary themes of the Legendarium. The series appears to equate Elves with Hispanics in some allegorical sense - something Tolkien would have hated.

 

[fireproof78]

Hmmm...

"I do think of the Dwarves like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue."

The Letters of Tolkien, page 229, Letter number 176.

 

[Adaptive Manipulator]

Not specifically allegorical though - pretty much a similar archetype to the Ferengi in Star Trek - possibly also somewhat racist. The example I mentioned seemed more like a direct callout to the perceived problem with economic migrants crossing the southern border of the modern US.

 

[fireproof78]

Not specifically allegorical though - pretty much a similar archetype to the Ferengi in Star Trek - possibly also somewhat racist. The example I mentioned seemed more like a direct callout to the perceived problem with economic migrants crossing the southern border of the modern US.

True, but Tolkien would draw upon real world parallels to reflect in his story. For instance the Ring is a symbol, as he writes: A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so, also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless."

On Allegory, Tolkien has more to say: "Of course, Allegory and Story converge, meeting somewhere in Truth. So that the only perfectly consistent allegory is real life; and the only fully intelligible story is an allegory. And one finds, even in imperfect human 'literature," that the better and more consistent an allegory is more easily can it be read 'just a story'" and the better and more closely woven a story is the more easily can those so minded find allegory in it. But the two start out at opposite ends. You can make the Ring into an allegory of our own time, if you like: an allegory of the inevitable fate that waits for all attempts to defeat evil power by power. But that is only because all power magical or mechanical does always so work. You cannot write a story about an apparently simple magic ring without that bursting in, if you really take the ring seriously, and make things happen that would happen, if such a thing existed."

On Tom Bombadil and Allegory: "I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it....I do not mean him to be an allegory-0oor I should not have given him so particular, individual, and ridiculous a name-but 'allegory,' is the only mode of exhibiting certain functions: he is then an 'allegory." or an exemplar, a particular embodying of a pure (real) natural science: the spirt that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge."

While I think Tolkien did not care for allegory he nevertheless utilized it as literary function because he recognized they would inevitably happen. As such, I don't think he protest, as much (maybe grumble a bit) over the real world aspects when a story is written.

 

[Adaptive Manipulator]

I believe there are degrees of allegory - Tolkien's variety was of weak coincidences, where he was writing about widely applicable themes. He wasn't trying to shoehorn in Sauron and the Orcs as representing Soviet Russia in the 1950s. Anyway, I just hope the general writing improves. It seems that Sauron as Annatar might end up in Númenór and start his subversion there this season. However, what does he have to offer them given how things were set up last season - perhaps the nine rings of men? However, those rings were distributed more widely than just to the Númenóreans.

 

[fireproof78]

I believe there are degrees of allegory - Tolkien's variety was of weak coincidences, where he was writing about widely applicable themes.

I would agree, but some themes would pop out, by necessity, of the time of their creation. His rejection of Mordor as a Soviet Allegory would be because he conceived of the evil prior to the Russian revolution.

However, what does he have to offer them given how things were set up last season - perhaps the nine rings of men? However, those rings were distributed more widely than just to the Númenóreans.

Perhaps he works a bit with his allies over Middle Earth proper too?

 

[Adaptive Manipulator]

So, is Rory Kinnear playing Tom Bombadil on vacation in sunny Rhûn, Morgoth sojourning as Tom Bombadil, or Tim Benzedrine or some more hallucinogenic concoction that the show runners have come up with in a fever dream*? We don't know who'll be playing Goldberry/Ungoliant/Hashberry as yet, or if she'll even appear.

ETA: *More likely as a fever dream of Eru Ilúvatar perhaps.

Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
Thus much let me avow—
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

I stand amid the roar
Of a surf-tormented shore,
And I hold within my hand
Grains of the golden sand—
How few! yet how they creep
Through my fingers to the deep,
While I weep—while I weep!
O God! can I not grasp
Them with a tighter clasp?
O God! can I not save
One from the pitiless wave?
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?

-- A Dream within a Dream by Edgar Allan Poe

 

[Set Harth]

or Tim Benzedrine

 

[saddestmoon]

Well, my excitement for all things middle-earth / Arda is being stoked - with all the news, and reports that have been flowing in over the past month.

One thing conspicuously absent though has been any merchandise presence, particularly with TRoP: I personally would love, love, love to see a line of 6-inch action figures (at the very least) produced for the series. For context: I have a largish collection of Toybiz LOTRs figures, a smattering of Bridge Direct Hobbit figures, and one DST Ginli figure - as well as a bunch of customs I made over the years.

So any Rings of Power figures would go nicely into my collection - and judging by what we are seeing of the Season 2 trailer, BTS vids, there’s plenty of visually interesting characters begging to be made (specifically elven warriors, orcs, etc) - as well as those Season 1 designs (First-Age elven warriors, Moria dwarf guards, Numenorean infantry, etc).

I love me some action figures, so very keen to see some produced!

 

[JD]

Wow, they don't even have Funko Pop!s.

 

[FreezeC77]

Well, my excitement for all things middle-earth / Arda is being stoked - with all the news, and reports that have been flowing in over the past month.

One thing conspicuously absent though has been any merchandise presence, particularly with TRoP: I personally would love, love, love to see a line of 6-inch action figures (at the very least) produced for the series. For context: I have a largish collection of Toybiz LOTRs figures, a smattering of Bridge Direct Hobbit figures, and one DST Ginli figure - as well as a bunch of customs I made over the years.

So any Rings of Power figures would go nicely into my collection - and judging by what we are seeing of the Season 2 trailer, BTS vids, there’s plenty of visually interesting characters begging to be made (specifically elven warriors, orcs, etc) - as well as those Season 1 designs (First-Age elven warriors, Moria dwarf guards, Numenorean infantry, etc).

I love me some action figures, so very keen to see some produced!

From what I saw when I made a previous post. Amazon doesn't actually have any merchandising rights for LOTR. Tolkien sold off the movie and merchandising rights in the late 60s and then they were re-sold in the 70s before the animated movie. Amazon bought from the Tolkien estate the rights to use LOTR/Hobbit material (or chars/locations) in a episodic format requiring 4 or more parts (to get around it not being 'movie' rights)

They'd have to procure a separate agreement from the owners of the Tolkien merchandising rights who are licensing them out for video games/board games/etc.... Embracer Group holds those rights.

 

[saddestmoon]

@FreezeC77 - ahhhh, that’s right, I forgot about Embracer owning the merch rights, so absolutely makes sense now.

I guess I’ll continue customising for the foreseeable future!

 

[JD]

Nazanin Boniadi, who played Bronwyn in Season 1 is not coming back for Season 2. She said that on IG that it was her choice, but didn't say why. The role also has not been recast, so it looks like they might be writing the character out. It be interesting to see what they do with Arondir and Theo, since both of their storylines were connected to her.
EW.com has posted an interview with new Adar actor Sam Hazeldine.

 

[FreezeC77]

Nazanin Boniadi, who played Bronwyn in Season 1 is not coming back for Season 2. She said that on IG that it was her choice, but didn't say why. The role also has not been recast, so it looks like they might be writing the character out. It be interesting to see what they do with Arondir and Theo, since both of their storylines were connected to her.
EW.com has posted an interview with new Adar actor Sam Hazeldine.

Has there been any talk of 'time jumps' for S2? She and her son are some of the few 'non-Numenorean' human chars so their aging would be more obvious in a time-jump than any of the Numenorean characters and Dwarves are long-lived, Elves are immortal, and even the Hobbits (at least in Bilbo's times) were said not to reach adult-hood until they were into their 30s so they would age less than humans.

If they were to jump 15 to 20 years her son would be an adult character, but pretty much the rest of the cast could remain fairly close to what they were.

 

[The Nightmare Doctor]

Nazanin Boniadi, who played Bronwyn in Season 1 is not coming back for Season 2. She said that on IG that it was her choice, but didn't say why. The role also has not been recast, so it looks like they might be writing the character out. It be interesting to see what they do with Arondir and Theo, since both of their storylines were connected to her.

Damn, that's extremely disappointing. I've been a big fan of hers for years and she was one of the reasons I was most excited about for the series. Undoubtedly that influence my enjoyment for Bronwyn but she was definitely one of my favorite characters, original or not.

Has there been any talk of 'time jumps' for S2? She and her son are some of the few 'non-Numenorean' human chars so their aging would be more obvious in a time-jump than any of the Numenorean characters and Dwarves are long-lived, Elves are immortal, and even the Hobbits (at least in Bilbo's times) were said not to reach adult-hood until they were into their 30s so they would age less than humans.

If they were to jump 15 to 20 years her son would be an adult character, but pretty much the rest of the cast could remain fairly close to what they were.

I did think about that after the first season concluded so I was partially prepared for this potential news because of that possibility, but it's nonetheless disappointing.

 

[Adaptive Manipulator]

I heard Amazon was not paying salaries commensurate with the supposed importance of the series, although I'd like to believe it was an artistic choice to bow out. The actor who played Adar has also been recast - Joseph Mawle being replaced by Sam Hazeldine.

 

[JD]

Damn, that's extremely disappointing. I've been a big fan of hers for years and she was one of the reasons I was most excited about for the series. Undoubtedly that influence my enjoyment for Bronwyn but she was definitely one of my favorite characters, original or not.

You'll be really disappointed then, to hear that she's mostly stepped away from acting to focus on her activism.