Child support and alimony
Spoilers Lord of the Rings TV series
- Thread starter Cyrus
- Start date
In this series, Sauron supposedly had a child, whom Adar killed, which is definitely not from Tolkien's legendarium. I don't really care what Amazon makes up for the Second Age as long as they don't pretend it's canon. What's been shown so far doesn't fit with what Tolkien published in either the Appendices or The Silmarillion. To me, it's just expensive fan fiction. I wish it were a lot better, but I fear we're going to get more of the same. I'd like to stop paying Amazon money, but I need them for other things, so I'll just enjoy the thought of Bezos uselessly burning money.
To address your point on ‘Sauron having a child’
It’s implied by Sauron posing as Halbrand, but not actually explicitly confirmed as such - and any implication conveyed could be part of Halbrand’s overall ruse (his body language, reacting to Adar’s generalised baiting, taunting) which had been to garner sympathy from, and make an ally in Galadriel.
So Sauron could be playing both Galadriel and Adar, under the mantle of being Halbrand. After all, Sauron is a master of lies, and manipulation - so I would not trust much of what Halbrand said or did - and for all we know Adar has also been manipulated (and thinks Halbrand is simply Halbrand - and not Sauron at all). The scene itself plays out with Adar initially stating he doesn’t recognise Halbrand’s face, then proceeding to speculate as to how he might have hurt Halbrand, or someone he loved, or perhaps his child - which is when Halbrand reacts, triggered by Adar’s taunts.
So all of this could be read as simply a ruse to elicit sympathy - not read as Sauron literally having once had a child who was killed by Adar, then later reacting under the disguise as Halbrand - which make less sense narratively if Adar doesn’t recognise that Halbrand is Sauron
So Sauron could be playing both Galadriel and Adar, under the mantle of being Halbrand. After all, Sauron is a master of lies, and manipulation - so I would not trust much of what Halbrand said or did - and for all we know Adar has also been manipulated (and thinks Halbrand is simply Halbrand - and not Sauron at all). The scene itself plays out with Adar initially stating he doesn’t recognise Halbrand’s face, then proceeding to speculate as to how he might have hurt Halbrand, or someone he loved, or perhaps his child - which is when Halbrand reacts, triggered by Adar’s taunts.
So all of this could be read as simply a ruse to elicit sympathy - not read as Sauron literally having once had a child who was killed by Adar, then later reacting under the disguise as Halbrand - which make less sense narratively if Adar doesn’t recognise that Halbrand is Sauron
I admit Sauron having had a child - presumably with an Elf maiden - might be a somewhat interesting counterbalance to the Maia Melian in the First Age, who marries Elwë (Elu Thingol) and bears Lúthien Tinúviel. However, I suspect it'll be used to explain why Sauron went even more vengeful. In the Legendarium, Sauron desired domination over Middle-Earth, whereas his former master Melkor (Morgoth Baugir) wanted to destroy the works of Eru Ilúvatar.
Last edited:
If we are going down the road of Sauron literally having a child, then yes it would be an interesting counterpoint - but I don’t think Sauron is going to be humanised as a character much more than what we saw of him as Halbrand in Season 1.
That particular ruse (Halbrand) is blown now - at least for Galadriel and likely Elrond also. I think we are going to see more of Saurons’ manipulations, cruelty and machinations, as he starts to openly declare war on middle earth - starting with his sack of Eregion (as would appear from the trailer).
TBH
I’m really looking forward to seeing Vickers as Annatar, and glimpses from the trailer are really building him up to be a formidable enemy - looking almost vampiric, especially walking through the crowds of elves running in panic and confusion. The scene with him willing the Elvish Eregion guards against each other, and gesturing with his hands looks chilling!
Last edited:
Vindication at last![/hard core Ringers] 
That ought to be interesting
Going to need another wig to go under the hat. What about Goldberry? I assume Bombadil is not a genius loci in this adaptation, but, then Tolkien never stated that was the case. By some accounts, Bombadil does seem to be based on the demigod Väinämöinen from the Finnish folklore epic Kalevala. My own interpretation is that he is the author placing himself in the story as an neutral entity.
Last edited:
I have to say I didn't expect Vanity Fair to write such an extensive article about Tom Bombadil of all characters, but it's well worth the read! It covers the history of the character, Tolkien's intentions with him, how the show will use him, and Rory Kinnear's non-connection with the character and his approach to bringing him alive.
Last edited:
I see he has a suitable wig and beard. It remains to be seen how merry the actor can be. Also, perhaps Goldberry is off on a side quest with the Harfoots.
I actually have a very bad feeling about this. Sometime back the one ring.net posted some self-described "unhinged" rumors that I didn't think were worthy of posting in this thread.
Among those rumors were that we would meet Tom and Goldberry and they would in fact be...
Among those rumors were that we would meet Tom and Goldberry and they would in fact be...
..."Melkor and Ungoliant serving out their punishment bestowed upon them by the mandos"
https://www.theonering.net/torwp/20...s-an-unhinged-season-2-of-the-rings-of-power/
https://www.theonering.net/torwp/20...s-an-unhinged-season-2-of-the-rings-of-power/
Ew.
I really, really, really, really hope that's not true. Especially considering what the writers said about Tom Bombadil in the Vanity Fair article.I actually have a very bad feeling about this. Sometime back the one ring.net posted some self-described "unhinged" rumors that I didn't think were worthy of posting in this thread.
Among those rumors were that we would meet Tom and Goldberry and they would in fact be...
..."Melkor and Ungoliant serving out their punishment bestowed upon them by the mandos"
https://www.theonering.net/torwp/20...s-an-unhinged-season-2-of-the-rings-of-power/
Star Wars crossover confirmed.I actually have a very bad feeling about this. Sometime back the one ring.net posted some self-described "unhinged" rumors that I didn't think were worthy of posting in this thread.
Among those rumors were that we would meet Tom and Goldberry and they would in fact be...
..."Melkor and Ungoliant serving out their punishment bestowed upon them by the mandos"
https://www.theonering.net/torwp/20...s-an-unhinged-season-2-of-the-rings-of-power/
I appreciated the write up. It was nice that they went to Tolkien's letters, acknowledging that even Tolkien didn't take Tom as serious as fans did.
Last edited:
Wow, I definitely did not expect to see Tom popping up on Rings of Power. It will be interesting to see what they do with him.
The article specifically says they won't be touching on his origins or anything like that, so I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.I actually have a very bad feeling about this. Sometime back the one ring.net posted some self-described "unhinged" rumors that I didn't think were worthy of posting in this thread.
Among those rumors were that we would meet Tom and Goldberry and they would in fact be...
..."Melkor and Ungoliant serving out their punishment bestowed upon them by the mandos"
https://www.theonering.net/torwp/20...s-an-unhinged-season-2-of-the-rings-of-power/
A thought occurs to me with this news and people wondering over Tolkien's approach. In his letters, Tolkien notes that Lord of the Rings is first and foremost a Catholic work. Perhaps a Catholic minister or bishop could be hired to support that approach?
Yeah, I don't believe those early Bombadil rumors, especially because RoP doesn't have the rights to first age stuff, only being able to mention certain things by making special deals and I doubt they'd be allowed to do that specific thing. As for them having him in the show in general I'm fine with it, I just hope he's a bit happier and more Tom Bombadil-ish then he seems in the pics.
When it comes to Sauron/Halbrand having a kid, only one Maia ever had a child and that was Melian marrying the Elf King Thingol and giving birth to Luthien, to have any others would be a huge middle finger to Tolkien lore even by the standards of RoP.
When it comes to Sauron/Halbrand having a kid, only one Maia ever had a child and that was Melian marrying the Elf King Thingol and giving birth to Luthien, to have any others would be a huge middle finger to Tolkien lore even by the standards of RoP.
Those 'rumors' also say Amazon acquired the rights to the Silm, which I'm pretty sure would contradict a lot of what has been said about the LOTR rights in general.
Tolkien's estate a few years after his death sold the LOTR/Hobbit rights to Saul Zaentz who then produced the animated film and the movie rights were eventually sold (with an expiration date if not used). The LOTR movies and The Hobbit happened. The Zaentz company divested their stake and sold it to Embracer Group. Apparently WB has managed to hold onto the rights by making the animated movie otherwise there was going to be a lawsuit to have the rights revert back to Embracer.
Amazon has a weird agreement directly with the Tolkien estate. I've seen it worded that Amazon has rights to all LOTR/Hobbit story/characters/setting, but only in a 4 or greater format. Which would actually make it seem like Amazon could theoretically remake the movies and just tell it in episodes, but may just be my incorrect take.
Now it has been said that Tolkien's original sale of movie and merchandising rights for the LOTR/Hobbit included a stipulation that other works like the Silmarillion or published/unpublished in the same universe would need to be given a 'match chance' first to the owner of those LOTR/Hobbit rights.
I guess it could be possible the side-agreement Amazon has directly from Tolkien's estate which includes ability to use characters and settings from the LOTR/Hobbit even though those movie rights are held elsewhere could be such that Tolkien's Estate could have given them similar with the Silm, without doing the matching offer as the 'matching offer' would be for movie rights and Amazon isn't doing movies.
Similar threads
