Lorca: Fans Will Have To Adjust

[donners22]

I don't really get the complaints about "small universe syndrome". What's the point of having such a vast amount of canon if little use is made of it?

I'd rather see cross-over of characters and species than have new faces every week, which rapidly degenerate into a blur of random forehead ridges and guest actors.

Of course, if taken too far it can be bad (the litverse has plenty of examples of that), but there's nothing wrong with it if done well.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't really get the complaints about "small universe syndrome". What's the point of having such a vast amount of canon if little use is made of it?

That's not what it means. Small universe syndrome doesn't result from any use of the "vast amount of canon," but rather from positing improbable connections within it so that things keep incredibly coming back to the same few focal points. Examples, the Borg and V'ger must be related, or Trelane is a Q. That sort of thing reduces the vastness of the universe, basically by reducing the number of important players. It's no longer vast, thus the complaint.

An old thread on it: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/small-universe-syndrome.108192/

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Did the nasty man knock off your ice cream cone and take away your lollipop?

Knock off the personal remarks or it will result in an infraction.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Knock off the personal remarks or it will result in an infraction.

Sorry.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Problem is that it's nearly impossible to tell between people who might complain because they can't let go from old Trek to people who simply don't like it. His comments could, like mentioned above, be a means of basically lumping all criticism in one category. I think it's kind of like the new "Ghoustbusters" movie. You had people who hated it because of sexism but you also had people who hated it because it was bad and others who hated it because it wasn't just bad but it was, yet another remake that doesn't do justice to a classic movie. Yet some wanted to say all criticism was due to sexism. I think "The Nostiga Critic" critic did a good job of exposing the whole issue.

*Ghoustbusters-Ghostbusters
*The Nostiga Critic-The Nostalgia Critic

The fanbois who hated the 2016 Ghostbusters movie were and are stupid unreasoning idiots who are full of themselves and also full of Brown-25, unable to realize that a reboot was going to happen due to the death of Harold Ramis and the reluctance of Bill Murray to want to make another one (and also due to the fact that neither Ramis or Murray were on speaking terms after the fall-out both had on the set of Groundhog Day)-the 2009 video game was basically the third movie, and all that Murray wanted/wants to do as Peter Venkman, most likely, since all that one had/has to do was/is show up in a studio for voice work. There's nothing that says that Murray, Ackroyd, Ramis, Hudson, Weaver, Potts, and Moranis have/had to come back in their original roles just to pass the torch and to satisfy said fanbois, Doug Walker and other YouTube film/TV critics like him included.

Put simply, I (and most likely a ton of other people worldwide) knew that it was not a question of if there was going to be a Ghostbusters reboot, but when said reboot was going to happen, and it did happen. People could either deal with it, or not deal with it, and most of then chose not only to do that, but to disrupt the movie's success because 'the trailer wasn't funny enough' and 'Eww! Girls!'

I know this will be the case simply by how people have reacted to the canon/new universe theory. How many people have made the mistake of making it seem like everyone who might not think if the show is apart of canon is the same as being mad or thinking the show will be bad because they think that opinion? People get a idea on what they think is really behind all criticism and like the toss everyone's opinions into one big lump and don't respect that people are individuals and everyone i going to have their own unique perspective on the show.

Jason

Jason, people should be able to adapt to these changes in the franchise the same way they were able to adapt to the other previous changes in the franchise already mentioned by others in previous comments here. This is a TV series, after all, not something so drastic that might affect them truly badly (like losing an apartment when it's the only place they can afford to live in, or something else similarly life-affecting.)

Oh yeah, one more:

*i-I

 

[Jayson1]

Why would they be villains?

We know they will be part of the Federation but we don't know when they join which means your door is open to how you want to use them. They could be allies as well.

Jason

 

[BillJ]

That's not what it means. Small universe syndrome doesn't result from any use of the "vast amount of canon," but rather from positing improbable connections within it so that things keep incredibly coming back to the same few focal points. Examples, the Borg and V'ger must be related, or Trelane is a Q. That sort of thing reduces the vastness of the universe, basically by reducing the number of important players. It's no longer vast, thus the complaint.

Or Spock's never before heard of adopted sister being the focal point.

For some folks the connections are neat, sometimes I find them neat. The above is just a bit "WTF?". I'd rather Micheal Burnham be interesting because of the things Micheal Burnham does, not because of her connections to Sarek and Spock.

 

[Jayson1]

*Ghoustbusters-Ghostbusters
*The Nostiga Critic-The Nostalgia Critic

The fanbois who hated the 2016 Ghostbusters movie were and are stupid unreasoning idiots who are full of themselves and also full of Brown-25, unable to realize that a reboot was going to happen due to the death of Harold Ramis and the reluctance of Bill Murray to want to make another one (and also due to the fact that neither Ramis or Murray were on speaking terms after the fall-out both had on the set of Groundhog Day)-the 2009 video game was basically the third movie, and all that Murray wanted/wants to do as Peter Venkman, most likely, since all that one had/has to do was/is show up in a studio for voice work. There's nothing that says that Murray, Ackroyd, Ramis, Hudson, Weaver, Potts, and Moranis have/had to come back in their original roles just to pass the torch and to satisfy said fanbois, Doug Walker and other YouTube film/TV critics like him included.

Put simply, I (and most likely a ton of other people worldwide) knew that it was not a question of if there was going to be a Ghostbusters reboot, but when said reboot was going to happen, and it did happen. People could either deal with it, or not deal with it, and most of then chose not only to do that, but to disrupt the movie's success because 'the trailer wasn't funny enough' and 'Eww! Girls!




Jason, people should be able to adapt to these changes in the franchise the same way they were able to adapt to the other previous changes in the franchise already mentioned by others in previous comments here. This is a TV series, after all, not something so drastic that might affect them truly badly (like losing an apartment when it's the only place they can afford to live in, or something else similarly life-affecting.)

Oh yeah, one more:

*i-I

I agree that expecting a 3rd movie the original cast was more of a pipe dream for along time, only to become even less than that when Ramis died. I think though that issue would have faded away if the movie was better. People tend to come around on those issue's if the new version done is well made. As for the issue of it having all woman that of course is one thing you can't change even with a good movie. Those people were never going to change their opinions. If a movie is bad though an it's connected to some franchise you care about that also will make the hatred even stronger.

I can think back to my first feelings when I started to see the adds. At the time I wasn't back on the internet so I didn't even know their was people angry with all female Ghostbusters. My initial feeling was that it as a neat twist on the first movie and was super excited because of the cast. Wiiig ,McKInnon and McCarthy were great comedians and Leslie Jones was solid in what I saw from her on SNL. I was more worried about Hemsworth who I thought was going to be doing the Rick Moranis type of role and I am always skeptical when way to sexy people do comedy. I also thought the movie was going to be set in the original universe and the cameo's would be from the old actors doing their characters. I did think the special effects looked bad and to much like cartoons.Other than Slimer and the state puff Marshmellow man we didn't get that in the first movie and they at least had a logical reason for the second.

When I watched the movie though I mostly just felt bored. None of jokes were working for me and I kind of agree with what "Honest Trailers" said and that everyone was trying to be the Venkman of the bunch. Hemsworth ended up being the funniest of the bunch and I felt like Cecily Strong's character was underused and could have been the Walter Peck character. Also Matt Walsh and Zac Woods are funny people as well and I felt their talents were wasted. The cameo's were just kind of their and didn't really add to anything.

With that said I wouldn't mind a sequel because the talent is their. I think a good movie can be done with this cast. It just didn't happen in this movie. At least it doesn't have the problem that the new "Indpendence Day" movie had which was also a reboot/remake that flopped at the same time. I don't think their is anything new in that universe that is worth telling and it hurts that Will Smith can't be used.

Jason

 

[Jayson1]

That's not what it means. Small universe syndrome doesn't result from any use of the "vast amount of canon," but rather from positing improbable connections within it so that things keep incredibly coming back to the same few focal points. Examples, the Borg and V'ger must be related, or Trelane is a Q. That sort of thing reduces the vastness of the universe, basically by reducing the number of important players. It's no longer vast, thus the complaint.

An old thread on it: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/small-universe-syndrome.108192/

Tv though is built off of improbable connections. What are the chances for example that the Enterprise would be the one ship that has all these zanny adventures? How many times can one ship have adventures with time travel or holodeck's going amuck? Not only is Picard the choice to become Locutus, he makes the Q interested in him, becomes the guy who gets to pick who leads the Klingon empire, was chosen to be cloned by the Romulans and makes first contact with the Ferengi.

Jason

 

[cooleddie74]

A starship named Enterprise is frequently the only ship in range/the quadrant or the only vessel that has the right commanding officer to handle the job. V'Ger. The Khan incident. Nimbus III. Etc, etc. etc. and so forth.

Starfleet is like the sports team that almost always throws the ball to its superstar player and hopes they can do most of the work and still make them all look just as good. It's a tired trope but it adds to the drama so they keep using it.

 

[Noname Given]

Tv though is built off of improbable connections. What are the chances for example that the Enterprise would be the one ship that has all these zanny adventures? How many times can one ship have adventures with time travel or holodeck's going amuck? Not only is Picard the choice to become Locutus, he makes the Q interested in him, becomes the guy who gets to pick who leads the Klingon empire, was chosen to be cloned by the Romulans and makes first contact with the Ferengi.

Jason

Not really, you can assume the other Starships of the fleet are also encountering these same types of Adventures (and we come across stories that feature other Starships, often not surviving, etc. but still.

STAR TREK just happened to follow the encounters of a Ship named the U.S.S. Enterprise, its Captain and crew.

 

[cultcross]

Tv though is built off of improbable connections. What are the chances for example that the Enterprise would be the one ship that has all these zanny adventures? How many times can one ship have adventures with time travel or holodeck's going amuck? Not only is Picard the choice to become Locutus, he makes the Q interested in him, becomes the guy who gets to pick who leads the Klingon empire, was chosen to be cloned by the Romulans and makes first contact with the Ferengi.

Jason

That's still not what it means. When the Enterprise is always having amazing adventures, that's a story. Almost all stories focus on people having unusual experiences, and episodic stories mean those same people have an improbable number of unusual experiences. Small universe syndrome is when you find out that the designer of the Enterprise refit is an ancestor of Picard and married to Tobin Dax and has a pet cat who is the ancestor of Spot, and went to school with Chekhov and fenced with Sulu and their cousin is Boothby and they live in the building which will become Sisko's Creole Kitchen, and they are secretly Garth of Izar.

 

[Campe]

Secretly Garth? Oh my God, that's brilliant!

 

[CorporalClegg]

I despise SUS when it's the insignificant little connections that only seem to be there "just because...":

"Finally we meet for the first time for the last time!"

"But there's something you should know: I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate."

They add nothing tot he narrative.

But if there is a grand purpose (theme, plot, whatever) to having characters connected, I don't mind it as much, especially if done well. And I actually see a lot of potential in Micheal's connect to Spock. Of course, it all depends on how well it's executed.

And even if it turns out she and Spock are close, the fact that she's new doesn't bother me. It isn't that Spock has never mentioned her, he's just never mentioned her within the context of the on-screen adventures.

It's perfectly reasonable to assume that, somewhere running errands between Vega Colony and K-7 Kirk and Spock sit down for a game of chess and Kirk asks, "Spock, I noticed you received a letter from your sister in yesterday's subspace download. How is she?"

"She's doing well, Jim. Thank you." And nothing ever said or done on screen contradicts that.

I had a thought earlier. Between some of the crumbs they've dropped and Meyer's involvement, there's been hints at a connection to TUC. Well what it's just that Spock almost desperate urging to make treaty with the Klingons is because he ultimately feels responsible for the conflict to begin with. If Michael turns out to be the cause of the conflict, maybe Sock feels that it was something he or Sarek (or both) did that put her in the position.

 

[Jayson1]

That's still not what it means. When the Enterprise is always having amazing adventures, that's a story. Almost all stories focus on people having unusual experiences, and episodic stories mean those same people have an improbable number of unusual experiences. Small universe syndrome is when you find out that the designer of the Enterprise refit is an ancestor of Picard and married to Tobin Dax and has a pet cat who is the ancestor of Spot, and went to school with Chekhov and fenced with Sulu and their cousin is Boothby and they live in the building which will become Sisko's Creole Kitchen, and they are secretly Garth of Izar.

What you are saying is characters who have a personal connection to other characters from the other Trek shows or encounters with them. I guess I can see that in terms of being far fetched but i'm not so sure it's anymore of a contrivance than any other one you see in tv. When you have a shared universe I think being able to see previous characters is one of it's appeals for the fans.

The contrivance that has always bothered me more is when friends from the past or never mentioned before family members or ex-wives/husbands show up. I have been re-watching Babylon 5, currently and it's amazing how much they did this in the first couple of years. Even bigger issue is if they show and are never mentioned again in future episodes. Someone like that Commander Lighton who was like a sister to Geordi on TNG or how about one of the most blaring ones and it was that friend of Xander and Willow from the pilot of "Buffy" who gets turned into a vamp and then dies and is never mentioned again.

Jason

 

[Fateor]

Put simply, I (and most likely a ton of other people worldwide) knew that it was not a question of if there was going to be a Ghostbusters reboot, but when said reboot was going to happen, and it did happen. People could either deal with it, or not deal with it, and most of then chose not only to do that, but to disrupt the movie's success because 'the trailer wasn't funny enough' and 'Eww! Girls!

*i-I

The new Ghostbusters movie didn't succeed because pretty much everything about it sucked balls and when people tried to warn the various producers, writers, and actors involved about this they started calling them sexist and attacking them.

 

[Vger23]

What you are saying is characters who have a personal connection to other characters from the other Trek shows or encounters with them. I guess I can see that in terms of being far fetched but i'm not so sure it's anymore of a contrivance than any other one you see in tv. When you have a shared universe I think being able to see previous characters is one of it's appeals for the fans.

The contrivance that has always bothered me more is when friends from the past or never mentioned before family members or ex-wives/husbands show up. I have been re-watching Babylon 5, currently and it's amazing how much they did this in the first couple of years. Even bigger issue is if they show and are never mentioned again in future episodes. Someone like that Commander Lighton who was like a sister to Geordi on TNG or how about one of the most blaring ones and it was that friend of Xander and Willow from the pilot of "Buffy" who gets turned into a vamp and then dies and is never mentioned again.

Jason

To me, crossover wank is far more indicative of "small universe syndrome" than what DSC is doing with Burnham.

Janeway giving Picard his orders in Nemesis
Bashir showing up on the Enterprise D in Birthright

Stuff like that...and a lot of the novelverse stuff that has Tuvok and 7 on a mission with Ezri and Nog as special operatives aboard the Titan or something. Barf.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The new Ghostbusters movie didn't succeed because pretty much everything about it sucked balls and when people tried to warn the various producers, writers, and actors involved about this they started calling them sexist and attacking them.

Ha, ha, ha, that's funny. How could "people" warn the various producers, writers, and actors involved that "pretty much everything about" a film they hadn't seen sucked balls? That's not possible, unless people had made up their mind before the film came out.

 

[Fateor]

Ha, ha, ha, that's funny. How could "people" warn the various producers, writers, and actors involved that "pretty much everything about" a film they hadn't seen sucked balls? That's not possible, unless people had made up their mind before the film came out.

Putting aside how Trailers are supposed to be showing you what a movie/show is going to be like.

They do this thing called "pre viewing" where they have a bunch of people watch the movie and tell them whether it's good or not.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I think nuGhostbusters is a solid film. It's not perfect by any means, but I think it significantly better than GB2.