"Logic extremists"

[The Wormhole]

I had a kind of amusing thought, that maybe the Vulcan suicide bomber that was on the shuttle with Sarek was one of the kids we see picking on Spock in Trek XI, perhaps even the one who called Sarek a traitor for marrying a "human whore."

And, I got to say, I think these Vulcan terrorists would have made a far more interesting storyline for the season's arc than this Klingon war has been.

 

[Rahul]

TNG did it first with Gambit Part 2

Again: No.
"Gambit" first introduced us to the idea that there exist Vulcan radicals. Something that should surprise no one. Sybok was one of them.

What started with ENT and ST09 was systematic racism on Vulcan. Not just some crazy individuals. THAT'S an entire different cup of tea!

 

[Jadeb]

And, I got to say, I think these Vulcan terrorists would have made a far more interesting storyline for the season's arc than this Klingon war has been.

And you would have been able to understand what they were saying.

 

[Mudd]

One issue I've always had with how Vulcans are depicted is they are supposed to have naturally stronger emotions than humans, but suppress them through training and discipline. Presuming that neural structure is roughly analogous between humans and Vulcans (which it should be in the Trekverse, because of interbreeding) one would expect that humans, with comparably weaker emotional extremes, would be more able to condition themselves to suppress all emotion. They should be "better Vulcans than Vulcans"

We supposedly feel less survival pressure to do so because as crazy as we get sometimes our emotions have not been as costly to our civilization as Vulcans' have been.

Hmm. Ruminate on that for a bit.

Andorians and Vulcans loathe one another because Andorians have heard the Word of Surak and rejected it.

 

[XCV330]

Vulcan extremism can also be seen (from ENT) as a kind of reactionary approach to a changing Galaxy. In their little neighborhood they were top dog. They had no problem holding the Klingon Empire at bay, and to some extent the Andorian Empire. They put agents in other starflight capable civilizations to keep track of progress, make arrangements where they can, progress cautiously where they cannot. Then they befriend Humans only but find their development outpaces them, even when they try to hold them back.

Humans remind them of themselves but are clearly making decisions that are leaving them behind. If you felt threatened on behalf of your species, you might begin go try to clothe your identity in some sense of superiority. It happens now.

 

[Kor]

...I am wonding though if the classic D7 design is a romulan design given to the Klingons rather than the other way around.

Per "The Enterprise Incident," it is a Klingon design.

Kor

 

[Rahul]

And, I got to say, I think these Vulcan terrorists would have made a far more interesting storyline for the season's arc than this Klingon war has been.

Considering "Vulcan threatens to leave the Federation" is a story concept that was first proposed in TNG, and the writers of DS9 seriously considered doing it as well, and how much DIS is re-using/adapting old, but previously un-used Star Trek concepts (the "Planet of the Titans"-design, female number one, ...) I'm pretty sure we are going to see more of that in the future. Maybe even already in season 2.

 

[The Wormhole]

the writers of DS9 seriously considered doing it as well

They did? I know Vulcan was originally meant to be conquered by the Dominion but was changed at the last minute to Betazed, but I didn't know that one.

 

[Prax]

I don't understand what this Vulcan crazyman hoped to achieve. He blew himself up...in a nebula...the only witness was his intended victim.

The news headline would read "Communication was lost with Ambassador Sarek while he was heading out on a fishing trip. A search for his vessel is underway."

He was hoping to stall peace talks from being initiated? What reason would Vulcan have to secede from the Federation? I don't get it. Do these logic extremists view the federation simply as an alliance between Vulcan and Earth?

 

[Prax]

They did? I know Vulcan was originally meant to be conquered by the Dominion but was changed at the last minute to Betazed, but I didn't know that one.

They wanted to have Vulcan leave during the Homefront martial law thing. They were wise not to use that story idea.(imo)

 

[kerchan]

I was reasaonbly psoitive about Discovery at the start... then it's eroded a bit. Then I heard the term "Logic extremists".

I searched Giphy for "stupid" and I feel this image basically says more than I ever can.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/1Pfd5qmaqBvjO/giphy.gif

Logic extremists sounds illogical.A vulcan suicide bomber is also illogical as since he the suicide bomber is dead it makes no difference to him.

 

[Rahul]

Logic extremists sounds illogical.A vulcan suicide bomber is also illogical as since he the suicide bomber is dead it makes no difference to him.

The name "logic extremist" is a bit silly. They could have given them a more discriptive name of their real intentions, "isolationist extremists", or "purity extremists".

But then again, how realistic a label is "alt-right"?

I think the larger point being you could literally use EVERY ideology that exists and turn it into a violent movement if you seek total purity and don't allow for a certain amount of leeway. So I'm really fine with the "logic extremist" label.

 

[Ronald Held]

Logical extremists is a translation of the term into Standard.
IMO, Vulcan society cannot tolerate massive dissent and remain stable.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Logic extremists sounds illogical.A vulcan suicide bomber is also illogical as since he the suicide bomber is dead it makes no difference to him.

That's illogical because a suicide bomber is aware he's going to die to achieve his end. The objection to suicide bombing should be the deaths caused, not the method.

 

[Charles Phipps]

One issue I've always had with how Vulcans are depicted is they are supposed to have naturally stronger emotions than humans, but suppress them through training and discipline. Presuming that neural structure is roughly analogous between humans and Vulcans (which it should be in the Trekverse, because of interbreeding) one would expect that humans, with comparably weaker emotional extremes, would be more able to condition themselves to suppress all emotion. They should be "better Vulcans than Vulcans"

This is an analogy but in my Star Trek RPG (Decipher), the issue came out and the basic statement went like this:

Player 1# (Human): Wait, so Vulcans are MORE emotional than humans. How does it make sense you'd want to suppress it? Shouldn't we be more logical?

Player 2# (Vulcan): Presumably, it is the view that a man who has had his house burn down is more aware fire is a danger.

THIS is IMO the whole point of this debate. Because I am ABSOLUTELY your opinion here.

But I think both Star Trek 09 ("Your human mother") and DIS ("only ONE non-Vulcan allowed") introduce an element of racism inherint to the system, perpetuated by authoritve figures, that is completely new to the Vulcans, and IMO really shouldn't be there. Because it leaves the realms of "snooty and condescending" (which is a TOTALLY fair characterisation), and enters into the realms of "institutionalised discrimination based on race" (which is NOT).

While correct, I should point out I think it's entirely possible that's the SAME Vulcan who did Spock's entry into the Science Academy and made the sadistic choice for Sarek in Lethe. I also think we need a larger sample of institutionalized racism than Sarek's immediate family.

But yes, presumably humans are not welcome in the Vulcan Science Academy the way Vulcans are welcome in Starfleet Academy.

I don't think it's formalized by law, though, which is a big difference even if the effect is functionally the same. After all, Michael or Spock could have gotten in, but they were only willing to let one in.

Presumably to show, "No, we're not racist! There's Spock over there."

 

[Rahul]

This is an analogy but in my Star Trek RPG (Decipher), the issue came out and the basic statement went like this:

Player 1# (Human): Wait, so Vulcans are MORE emotional than humans. How does it make sense you'd want to suppress it? Shouldn't we be more logical?

Player 2# (Vulcan): Presumably, it is the view that a man who has had his house burn down is more aware fire is a danger.

There is quite some difference in how it was depicted over the times (or, hell in the same series at times), but I interpreted it always the way as:

• Vulcans have strong emotions.
  
• They learn to not act upon them, but on to the conclusions they came to solely using logic.
  
• They have a bigger part of their brain to "suppress" those emotions - so they normally don't show openly. But, like a drunk human, if that system fails, they are a lot more emotional than many other races.

While correct, I should point out I think it's entirely possible that's the SAME Vulcan who did Spock's entry into the Science Academy and made the sadistic choice for Sarek in Lethe. I also think we need a larger sample of institutionalized racism than Sarek's immediate family.

But yes, presumably humans are not welcome in the Vulcan Science Academy the way Vulcans are welcome in Starfleet Academy.

I don't think it's formalized by law, though, which is a big difference even if the effect is functionally the same. After all, Michael or Spock could have gotten in, but they were only willing to let one in.

Presumably to show, "No, we're not racist! There's Spock over there."

You know, this thought didn't cross my mind at all. That this was the same racist dude, just re-cast because different universe.

And that this is one individual, at a position of high power, that's kind of a racist asshole. But, with Vulcan being such a homoegnous society, his peers probably didn't recognize his racist tendencies - there aren't that many chances to act them out in the open - the guy is probably qualified enough in his field of science, and the guys he's discriminating against aren't exactly the ones in power to make his superiours recognize his behaviours.

This theory isn't perfect (Sarek, being the authority he is, would be able to alarm others about this dick), but it's close enough for me. As in, Vulcan still isn't racist by design, but lacks the kind of self-regulatory oversight to adress this issue, comparable to some present-day cases.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I tend to think it might be the same racist dude because he's the head of the Science Academy which Michael just graduated and is playing a big role in the education of both children. If the Science Academy is to the Vulcan Expeditionary Force what the Starfleet Academy is to Starfleet then it makes perfect sense.

He also is racist and condescending but in a manner which you could take as being conciliatory.

I.e. "You are a credit to your race, Spock, for overcoming your human nature."

And "You can choose Michael OR Spock."

 

[zar]

Per "The Enterprise Incident," it is a Klingon design.

Kor

Yeah, but the whole ship/cloak exchange has always been shrouded in mystery. Basically that one line in Enterprise Incident is the only real information we have. What if Starfleet was wrong? They naturally would have assumed Klingon design even if it were Romulan, because they saw Klingons with it first and had no idea what "Romulan design" was for the last hundred or so years. But Klingons could have been in contact with Romulans long before Balance of Terror.

 

[Kor]

Yeah, but the whole ship/cloak exchange has always been shrouded in mystery. Basically that one line in Enterprise Incident is the only real information we have. What if Starfleet was wrong? They naturally would have assumed Klingon design even if it were Romulan, because they saw Klingons with it first and had no idea what "Romulan design" was for the last hundred or so years. But Klingons could have been in contact with Romulans long before Balance of Terror.

Spock said, "Intelligence reports Romulans using Klingon design." So this simple statement was based on all the thorough data analysis, number crunching, covert operations, and whatever other means that Starfleet Intelligence had at its disposal. We can be certain that by that point, Starfleet Intelligence had been making every detailed and diligent effort possible to gather all conceivable information on the Federation's adversaries and their capabilities, technology, political dynamics, etc.

So if Starfleet Intelligence says it's a Klingon design, then we can be pretty sure that it really is a Klingon design unless we are told specifically that Starfleet Intelligence was mistaken in this matter.

Kor

 

[zar]

Spock said, "Intelligence reports Romulans using Klingon design." So this simple statement was based on all the thorough data analysis, number crunching, covert operations, and whatever other means that Starfleet Intelligence had at its disposal. We can be certain that by that point, Starfleet Intelligence had been making every detailed and diligent effort possible to gather all conceivable information on the Federation's adversaries and their capabilities, technology, political dynamics, etc.

So if Starfleet Intelligence says it's a Klingon design, then we can be pretty sure that it really is a Klingon design unless we are told specifically that Starfleet Intelligence was mistaken in this matter.

Kor

Yes, but if Intelligence had nothing on Romulans pre-BoT, all the data and number crunching can only conclude "Klingon". Of course, that was always what we were supposed to conclude too, but the fascinating thing is that DSC could decide to tell us Intelligence was mistaken and upend decades of assumptions without actually contradicting much, and I kind of want to see that happen now. It would line up with their comments about challenging assumptions and describing ENT as troublesome.