• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

"Logic extremists"

The Vulcan culture (IMHO) was invented as a way to show how logic and liberal secular humanism are supposed to go hand-in hand, which is an outgrowth of 60s culture, that we can sort of "educate" our way out of injustice.
.

I don't know. I always saw the Vulcans as representing one extreme, not a goal to aspire to. Indeed, TOS was constantly challenging Spock's commitment to logic, mostly via McCoy.

McCoy represented emotion. Spock represented logic. But the show itself never took the position that Spock was right and McCoy was wrong. They were two extremes, with Kirk in the middle.

Heck, the whole point of the first movie was Spock discovering that the Vulcan ideal of pure logic was NOT enough. He needed to make peace with his unruly human emotions as well.
 
The Vulcan culture (IMHO) was invented as a way to show how logic and liberal secular humanism are supposed to go hand-in hand, which is an outgrowth of 60s culture, that we can sort of "educate" our way out of injustice.
Nope. I think Greg has it nailed:
I don't know. I always saw the Vulcans as representing one extreme, not a goal to aspire to. Indeed, TOS was constantly challenging Spock's commitment to logic, mostly via McCoy.

McCoy represented emotion. Spock represented logic. But the show itself never took the position that Spock was right and McCoy was wrong. They were two extremes, with Kirk in the middle.

Heck, the whole point of the first movie was Spock discovering that the Vulcan ideal of pure logic was NOT enough. He needed to make peace with his unruly human emotions as well.
 
Heck, the whole point of the first movie was Spock discovering that the Vulcan ideal of pure logic was NOT enough. He needed to make peace with his unruly human emotions as well.
And even the Kohlinar master was able to recognize that Spock's answer could not be found in logic. A lesson that Spock kept learning throughout the films:

RdJstll.jpg


xy7ztPb.jpg
 
Well, in real life, not possessing emotions is called psychopathy so we should be grateful the Vulcans DO have emotions but strive not to.
I was always a bit annoyed when it was stated the Vulcans don't have emotions. They aren't robots, they are sentient beings who went through a period in their history of being so violent that they almost wiped themselves out and through the teachings of Surak learned that in order to save themselves from those violent emotions it was necessary to suppress them, not that they didn't have them. Of course there are different believes among Vulcans that it is necessary to purge emotions, if they so choose and go through the kohlinar ritual. But as Spock learned, at least in his particular case (being half Human, or perhaps in just being Spock) it didn't work for him. He had to come to that realization that he needed to face his emotions (just like McCoy had been trying to make him see during the original 5 year mission aboard the Enterprise)
 
I do have a question about Vulcans, given that the race was conceived and developed during TOS (by Leonard Nimoy, Roddenberry and many writers) do you think that Vulcans have been portrayed the way they were intended to be as were created back then? I wonder what the people involved in creating Vulcans would think (FYI I never watched much ENT because it never grabbed me, but I do know many episodes revolved around Vulcan society as the writers of that show viewed them. I wonder what Gene Roddenberry would think of it. And I wonder what Leonard Nimoy, if he ever said what he thought of their view point (or if he even ever watched an episode of "Enterprise")
 
We might have gotten a clearer picture of Gene's concept of Vulcan society if Phase II had gone ahead with the character of Xon, who was full-vulcan. He therefore would (in theory) not be as conflicted about logic vs. emotion, although as we saw later with Sybok, just because you're full Vulcan doesn't mean it can't be a struggle.
 
I was reasaonbly psoitive about Discovery at the start... then it's eroded a bit. Then I heard the term "Logic extremists".

I searched Giphy for "stupid" and I feel this image basically says more than I ever can.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/1Pfd5qmaqBvjO/giphy.gif

giphy.gif
Remember the episode of ENT "Fusion" when the Enterprise NX-01 was introduced to Vulcans that took an alternative approach to the teachings of Surak. Despite the revelations of the Kal'Shara introduced in the S. 4 Vulcan arc, it would make sense that not all of Vulcan would be unified under the reformed teachings of Surak. Extremism exists in all belief systems and I don't know why logic would be an exception. DS9 also showed us Vulcans that joined the Maquis.
 
Although it does not break setting, it didn't sit well with me, for some reason.

I think the reason it didn't sit well with me might be that we seem to see more of Vulcan xenophobia these days than their vaunted ideals of peace. They were originally intended as an inspirational alien society, one that had renounced violence, and embraced logic as a means of overcoming a dark age. Something we humans can take solace in; that no matter how barbarous the times, we can transcend it through reason and cooperation.

The writers of the shows and movies have portrayed Vulcan society as deeply racist a few times now. So, is that now their defining trait? Basically every non-Spock Vulcan we see being a xenophobe, and a short sighted person unwilling to cooperate or share their ideals? We have an Earth which is basically crime-free by Sisko's time. But Vulcan, the mother of all pacifist civilizations, the Switzerland of Space, has Romulan collaborators, suicide bombers... I mean, it does not break story, because even in the TOS novel 'Spock's World', people were portraying Vulcan secessionist movements from the Federation... But shouldn't the planet Vulcan really be the Federation's greatest advocates?
 
The Vulcan Extremist who tried to blow up Sarek, had a very similar sounding name to V'Las. I guess he was a relative. Wouldn't the Vulcans check the background of their employees? How did he end up working for Sarek?
 
I didn't see it as "all Vulcans are xenophobic." Sarek used the word extremists, suggesting these Vulcans are on the fringe of their society.
 
The fact is, this is not new, we saw xenophoic Vulcans in the TNG era, in the Gambit episodes.
Thanks for the reminder, which goes back to @Rahul 's non-point about "they never acted like this in TNG" and to @T'Zombie /Bonz' general conundrum...

T'PAAL: Very well. To answer your question, for several years now, there has been a small, but growing movement of extreme isolationists on Vulcan, a group that believes contact with alien races has polluted our culture and is destroying Vulcan purity. This group advocates the total isolation of Vulcan from the rest of the galaxy, and the eradication of all alien influences from our planet.
PICARD: That sounds like an illogical philosophy.
T'PAAL: Agreed. But extremists often have a logic all their own.

Like their violent impulses, xenophobic sentiments have always been present among Vulcans. Over the centuries they have risen and fallen in their prevalence and influence on the culture; at times they have ascended into common currency and executive authority, yeilding in the 22nd century militarism and intense micro-management of neighboring "protectorate" worlds' affairs, then secretive isolationism in the 23rd, while at others they have been reduced to the acts of fringe extremists, but nonetheless they always waits to crop up again, as at this moment in the 24th. I don't find that dynamic at all unrealistic.

Like @Greg Cox said above, interaction with other species (particularly openly emotional ones like humans) challenges Vulcans' views of themselves and confronts them with uncomfortable realizations about the limits of their logic. It's a natural reflex to want to avoid that unpleasant self-examination, a defense mechanism. It's that basic fear of "the other" that blindly focuses on how different they are from you in order to avoid the deeper insecurities that arise out of a nagging consciousness of how alike you actually are. Is it not logical, if something or someone is perceived as being the source of discomfort, to seek to "eliminate the destructive element," either by removing it or removing oneself from it?

Sarek goes very much against this grain, both personally and professionally. This is a distinctive element of his character that is now being built upon further in DSC. Spock was always dead wrong in his deep-seated insecurity that Sarek felt disappointment at finding him "so human" rather than the love, pride, admiration, perhaps even envy for his son that were later revealed to Picard. That much is no new revelation here. Sarek thinks it's perfectly logical and agreeable to embrace humans, on all levels. Just look at his choice of wives, and his devotion to Michael. It's no coincidence that she, Spock, and Sybok are all his children. None of them are typical Vulcans; perhaps what some of us, like some of them, need to realize is that this is may be more because of their father's influence than despite it.
 
Last edited:
I’m reminded about the bit in TMP where Spock dismissed Decker’s idea that V’Ger was firing warning shots because that would require compassion, an emotional consideration. Logic just depends on what fundamentals you choose, and if one of those isn’t the value of life (or the value of non-Vulcan life), violence would be the most straightforward solution to getting what you want, assuming you would win any struggle.

Why? If you believe logic is be all and end all, you might have an extremist viewpoint.

There seems to be implicitly more to Vulcan philosophy than just mathematical style logic.

But, logic itself arguably provides a reason for non-violence, even without compassion.

For example, it has been pointed out that all evolved organisms see other organisms as a mere part of their environment, like a rock, river, or lump of food, and this is the root of exploitative violence, but also in it lies the seed of peace. They do not harm close relatives, as they share the same genes, and their deployment of violence is driven by gene propagation, so eliminating your own genes would not evolve. The thing that prevents them from using another different organism merely as a means, is the other organism's ability to treat them as a means in return, and is just as capable of violence, thus indiscriminate violence or lashing out is selected against. Violence is always strategic.
  • Animals like Humans and Vulcans are evolved to use violence where the gain is greater than the risk.
  • Animals with bigger brains are more capable of discerning the benefits and risks of a particular situation.
  • Animals other than themselves are capable of hitting back.
Natural selection favours genes that control their animal behaviour in a way that favours optimal utilisation of their environment. Based on this, people have argued that the logic of a 'positive sum game' will always make more sense, and that this is the basis for why peace and rights have expanded more and more across human history. Where civilization adopts rationality, it can moderate the emotions that lead to violence. Star Trek unashamedly seems to favour this 'natural law' view of the Federation, seen also in the United States constitution. It is not that humans are born gentle and civilization breeds war into them, it is that humans and all other life is born savage, and civilization perfects us.

So, the Vulcan ideology seems to incorporate more than just logic, but also an ideology in which cooperation is always better than conflict, peace always better than violence. I think Surak even said something like this in the TOS episode where the Excalibans made a copy of him.

Why?

To some people in the top ranks or Nazi Germany and Communist russia, extermination and violence seemed like nessary and logical steps. They just viewed things through warped "logic". In fact soviet russia and maoist china was built around the concept of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, justifying tens of millions of deaths.

The Vulcans also seem to protect the 'individual', and this is a key difference maybe.

The ideologies which are cited above, all placed the collective good above the individual good. To say this in formal terms: the life of the individual is treated as a means, rather than an end in itself. The United States constitution on the other hand, which Kirk directly read from in one episode, places the individual as the end in itself: the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", is what separates it from a totalitarian ideology. Some people have accused Plato of having been the intellectual progenitor of totalitarianism because he saw the greater good, and use of ideology as a tool to shape society. Aristotle on the other hand accepted people 'as they are', having a naturalistic view of the universe.

Vulcan ideology says the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, but crucially, perhaps only extols people to make sacrifices for others, of their own free will; not mandating them via ideology.

Democracy, truth, self-determination and individualism are strong themes in Star Trek, as Kirk will free a people from a deception by computer, only to say 'the rest is up to you'; the prime directive will prevent Starfleet from guiding development, as it must come from self-determination, and Roddenberry suggested the Klingons of TOS were a civilization that didn't value the individual, i.e. in contrast to the Federation where value for life itself is the sacred end.

Let's not forget that this show has established that the Vulcans -- presumably the non-extremist sort -- practiced a kill-on-sight policy with the Klingons as a matter of routine practice. I think that bothers me more than the existence of the radical faction.

I think this actually makes a certain amount of sense. The Klingons have no intention of coming to peaceful terms with the Vulcans as a state, for now. The only recourse is to establish a balance of power, in such a situation, not to allow yourself to be conquered. It may be this Vulcan action that protected the Alpha Quanrant from Klingon annexation prior to the Federation. I don't think it's ideally what they would have wanted however.
 
I didn't see it as "all Vulcans are xenophobic." Sarek used the word extremists, suggesting these Vulcans are on the fringe of their society.
Indeed. Some Vulcans will be xenophobic, just as some humans will be (*cough* Captain Archer *cough*). Adherence to logic as a philosophy actually allows one to justify all sorts of horrible things. "The needs of the many..." stuff from TWOK can be applied very tyrannically indeed.

STVI showed a Vulcan who used her understanding of logic to justify murder and political interference to prevent peace.
 
I was intrigued by the use of the LLAP greeting gesture as he blew up. I wonder if the group have taken it as a symbol of cultural purity or something.

Or alternatively, this show just really really loves that gesture :lol:
 
I hope the Logic Extremists are not Romulans. Would be a shame if everything that's morally wrong about Vulcan society can be explained away by outside influences or spies.
I think it's unlikely - we've been told we won't see the Romulans in the series and while they may break that rule further down the road because they're short on ideas, I doubt they would in episode 6.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top