Let's talk about the elephant in the room, this series violates Roddenberry's vision big time

[KirkusOveractus]

I never suggested they weren't competent.

I wasn't saying you were. To me, it just seems that the Starfleet crews so far in DSC aren't really that up to speed on combat situations, and that's laziness to not have drills. Any Starfleet vessel could be attacked or need to defend themselves anywhere at any time.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

There's having drills and then there's actual combat. This is a Starfleet that hasn't faced actual war since before the formation of the Federation. The whole notion of going to war happened so quickly that not all have adjusted to the reality of their situation. By Kirk and then Picard's time that's different because they have combat experience as much as diplomacy.

 

[BillJ]

This is a Starfleet that hasn't faced actual war since before the formation of the Federation.

I don't buy it. In one of the opening episodes, Burnham asks Georgiou what the soldier in her thinks. Which means Georgiou has had her share of combat experience.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Should have phrased that as a "full scale war". I only get the impression that they had skirmishes, but nothing that changes the priorities of their organization to the point of putting aside scientific exploration.

 

[Nyotarules]

I don't buy it. In one of the opening episodes, Burnham asks Georgiou what the soldier in her thinks. Which means Georgiou has had her share of combat experience.

Border skirmishes are not wars. Would you call the US invasion of Grenada a war even though soldiers were involved, on one side.

 

[cooleddie74]

I don't buy it. In one of the opening episodes, Burnham asks Georgiou what the soldier in her thinks. Which means Georgiou has had her share of combat experience.

And not just that but in 2255 the Federation signed the Treaty of Armens with the Sheliak with ended a war between the two. That's just a year before the first episodes of DSC. The Federation knows war, just not a full-scale one with the Klingon Empire.

 

[Tallguy]

Starfleet can step up with military action when required, but I'm pretty sure all incarnations have made it clear they are explorers FIRST and their military might is has always been for defense purposes. Heck, DIS has characters upset about the war taking precedence over exploration.

And nobody takes them seriously. Because there is no way that exploration will be given first consideration.

Lorca's playing the transmissions from the outpost under siege was manipulative but effective because there was (hopefully) no one on the ship that was going to say "We can't save you! We're EXPLORERS!"

All that said, it would be interesting to see an episode where a base / ship / planet is lost because the explorers stuck to their ideals and refused to take up arms. And how the survivors deal with that decision.

 

[Noname Given]

And not just that but in 2255 the Federation signed the Treaty of Armens with the Sheliak with ended a war between the two. That's just a year before the first episodes of DSC. The Federation knows war, just not a full-scale one with the Klingon Empire.

^^^
For all we know, it was a "War of Words" (Given how the Sheliak are with treaties.)

 

[Kemaiku]

Actually, it's listed as a skirmish or conflict of actual combat. Sheliak technology is as good or better than the Federations, they likely tried to communicate with the Sheliak to end it only after figuring out how, and before they were wiped out.

 

[The Wormhole]

Combat is not Starfleet's primary mission. The same reason why the police who have military grade weapons, vehicles and tactics (SWAT) are not military. Technically the Coast Guard isn't military either but I don't want to argue with any guardsmen . So yes reasons.

Donald Trump graduated from a military academy. That doesn't make him a soldier.

You haven't actually addressed how an organization can be non-military, yet it runs a military academy.

Seriously, nearly thirty years after the "Starfleet isn't military" line was first spoken, and this "fact" has even been a plot point in the two most recent movies, yet an official prop seen on screen in this show clearly presents Starfleet as a military.

 

[Longinus]

Seriously, nearly thirty years after the "Starfleet isn't military" line was first spoken, and this "fact" has even been a plot point in the two most recent movies, yet an official prop seen on screen in this show clearly presents Starfleet as a military.

This is just semantics. It is military in a sense that it performs certain military duties, it is not military in a sense that this is not its only, or even major purpose.

 

[Kor]

Another Starfleet as military argument? Oh, joy.

This is the final and definitive word on the matter, straight from the 1967 Star Trek writer's guide:

Is the starship U.S.S. Enterprise a military vessel?
Yes, but only semi-military in practice -- omitting features which are heavily authoritarian. For example, we are not aware of "officers" and "enlisted men" categories. And we avoid saluting and other annoying medieval leftovers. On the other hand, we do keep a flavor of Naval usage and terminology to help encourage believability and identification by the audience. After all, our own Navy today still retains remnants of tradition known to Nelson and Drake.

Now let's change the subject and try to decide whether Earth and the Federation use money in the era of Star Trek: Discovery, and how that would fit into Roddenberry's Vision (tm).

Kor

 

[The Wormhole]

Shit, this conversation goes in circles way too easily. There is clearly on screen evidence stating Starfleet is definitively military. End discussion.

 

[BillJ]

This is just semantics. It is military in a sense that it performs certain military duties, it is not military in a sense that this is not its only, or even major purpose.

They've always been the military. Trying to have them be anything else simply doesn't make sense in universe.

 

[The Wormhole]

They've always been the military. Trying to have them be anything else simply doesn't make sense in universe.

But Picard said!!!!

 

[BillJ]

But Picard said!!!!

Then less than two months later (in universe) he was protecting Kevin and Rishon Uxbridge from a supposed Husnock ship that destroyed the Delta Rana colony.

PICARD: It is my sworn duty to protect you. The Enterprise will remain in orbit around Rana Four as long as the two of you are alive.

 

[The Wormhole]

Then the week after that he was claiming humans no longer practiced religion, and then a year later we find out there are enough Hindus on the Enterprise that they observe Hindu holidays.

Picard is delusional and living in his own fantasy world.

 

[Kor]

Then the week after that he was claiming humans no longer practiced religion, and then a year later we find out there are enough Hindus on the Enterprise that they observe Hindu holidays.

Picard is delusional and living in his own fantasy world.

It's also a fantasy world where "the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves, and the rest of humanity."

Kor

 

[The Wormhole]

It's also a fantasy world where "the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves, and the rest of humanity."

Kor

Meanwhile, Dr. Crusher has an account she charges her purchases to.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Then the week after that he was claiming humans no longer practiced religion, and then a year later we find out there are enough Hindus on the Enterprise that they observe Hindu holidays.

Picard is delusional and living in his own fantasy world.

Picard went to all the trouble to rebuke Near-Vulcan religion and then helped set up Clone Jesus among the Klingons.

We could be here all day.