Spoilers Let’s talk about the destruction of Trek utopia…

[TRON JA307020]

Assuming there was ever intended to BE a utopia, PIC doesn't necessarily deconstruct or attempt to destroy it.

The show just takes place outside of Federation territory. So whatever utopia may exist, it still can, we just won't see it.

the utopia probably still exists. The biggest problem I’ve had was the way the characters act in the 24th century. They seem to be humans from the 20th century at times. But one big problem I had was when 7 took those phaser and Picard let her take them. He clearly knew what she was going to do. Did he not stop her because he knew he couldn’t or did he not stop her because he wanted he to murder? Maybe he believed her but it didn’t seem that way from his reaction. Picard mentioned several times throughout TNG on how far humans sensibilities had progressed and even went as far as to prove Q wrong. Seven murdered an unarmed person. I can’t believe Picard being so evolved would allow that. The Picard of TNG would never knowingly let someone on his crew do that. So in my mind that part of the human utopia is gone. Humans of the 24th century Star Trek are no more evolved then 20th century or earlier humans.

 

[fireproof78]

Because human evolution in Trek is surface deep. Both DS9 and First Contact demonstrated that. Where's the objections to those shows? Why isn't Sisko compared to a 21st century human?

Picard shows humans in line with past portrayals of Trek.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Because human evolution in Trek is surface deep. Both DS9 and First Contact demonstrated that. Where's the objections to those shows? Why isn't Sisko compared to a 21st century human?

Picard shows humans in line with past portrayals of Trek.

So you can see the Picard of TNG being ok with what seven did? I can’t remember anywhere in TNG that Captain Picard would remotely be ok with something like that,

 

[fireproof78]

So you can see the Picard of TNG being ok with what seven did? I can’t remember anywhere in TNG that Captain Picard would remotely be ok with something like that,

I can see a post assimilation, post First Contact, Picard being understanding of it.

Picard is not the same man, even from the end of TNG. To insist that him or humanity cannot continue to struggle is naive at best.

ETA: To borrow a quote, TNG is the cradle of the Trek fan but one cannot remain in the cradle forever.

 

[cooleddie74]

His experiences with the Borg and losing Data changed him. Jean-Luc Picard in 2399 was not the same man he was in 2370 or even 2379.

 

[Dukhat]

Humans of the 24th century Star Trek are no more evolved then 20th century or earlier humans.

That was always the case.

 

[Lord Garth]

Dialogue from Star Trek: First Contact, courtesy of a transcript from Chakoteya.

LILY: You son of a bitch.

PICARD: This really isn't the time.

LILY: Okay. I don't know jack about the twenty-fourth century but everybody out there thinks that staying here and fighting the Borg is suicide. They're just afraid to come in here and say it.

PICARD: The crew is accustomed to following my orders.

LILY: They're probably accustomed to your orders making sense.

PICARD: None of them understand the Borg as I do. ...No one does. No one can.

LILY: What is that supposed to mean?

PICARD: Six years ago, they assimilated me into their collective. I had their cybernetic devices implanted throughout my body. I was linked to the hive mind, every trace of individuality erased. I was one of them. So you can imagine, my dear, I have a somewhat unique perspective on the Borg and I know how to fight them. Now if you will excuse me I have work to do.

LILY: I am such an idiot. ...It's so simple. The Borg hurt you, and now you're going to hurt them back.

PICARD: In my century we don't succumb to revenge. We have a more evolved sensibility.

LILY: Bullshit! I saw the look on your face when you shot those Borg on the holodeck. You were almost enjoying it!

PICARD: How dare you!

LILY: Oh, come on, Captain. You're not the first man to get a thrill from murdering someone. I see it all the time.

PICARD: Get out!

LILY: Or what? You'll kill me, like you killed Ensign Lynch

PICARD: There was no way to save him.

LILY: You didn't even try. Where was your evolved sensibility then?

PICARD: I don't have time for this.

LILY: Oh! Hey! I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt your little quest. Captain Ahab has to go hunt his whale.

PICARD: What?

LILY: You do have books in the twenty-fourth century?

PICARD: This is not about revenge.

LILY: Liar!

PICARD: This is about saving the future of humanity.

LILY: Jean-Luc, blow up the damn ship!

PICARD: No! ...No!

(Picard breaks the starship display cabinet with his phaser rifle)

PICARD: No! ...I will not sacrifice the Enterprise. We've made too many compromises already. Too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. Not again! The line must be drawn here, ...this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done.

LILY: You broke your little ships. ...See you around, Ahab.

 

[Lord Garth]

If I hear "But that was different!", I'll puke.

 

[TRON JA307020]

If I hear "But that was different!", I'll puke.

Picard realized that he was out for revenge and he realized it was wrong. They abandoned the ship and he saved data. Also he was killing borg. Borg aren’t helpless like the lady seven murdered.

 

[fireproof78]

Picard realized that he was out for revenge and he realized it was wrong. They abandoned the ship and he saved data. Also he was killing borg. Borg aren’t helpless like the lady seven murdered.

She wasn't helpless.

And I love the idea that once a person learns a certain lesson they never need to learn it again. These evolved humans really are perfect...and completely unrelatable.

 

[Lord Garth]

Picard realized that he was out for revenge and he realized it was wrong. They abandoned the ship and he saved data. Also he was killing borg. Borg aren’t helpless like the lady seven murdered.

"Helpless"? Oh, God. You keep forgetting the way horrible in which she mutilated Icheb.

No offense, but you're calling her helpless because she's a woman.

It's time to call a spade a spade. It's written all over you. Do you think she'd be able to last long in a place like that if she were truly helpless? You need to get out more.

 

[cooleddie74]

Picard realized that he was out for revenge and he realized it was wrong. They abandoned the ship and he saved data. Also he was killing borg. Borg aren’t helpless like the lady seven murdered.

"Murdered."

She was a body part harvester who actually murdered former Borg drones to steal technology from their bodies. She got what was coming to her.

 

[Charles Phipps]

"Murdered."

She was a body part harvester who actually murdered former Borg drones to steal technology from their bodies. She got what was coming to her.

Hell, even Data tried to kill a monster criminal once.

 

[cooleddie74]

And I don't hold the Kivas Fajo incident against Data. At all. Frankly he'd have been more than justified.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Either way, the irony is that the only law in the area is the Fenris Rangers.

So...she's still a law officer.

It's no more murder than killing Duras.

 

[TRON JA307020]

And I don't hold the Kivas Fajo incident against Data. At all. Frankly he'd have been more than justified.

Data isn’t human. I’m talking about human Picard.

 

[Makarov]

Worf killed Duras after a swordfight with him and that's the Klingon way, it's also portrayed as a questionable decision.

Same with Data pulling the trigger on Fajo. He didn't beam back over to kill him or deactivate the brig force field and kill him. It was a highly discussed moment and it was meant to be.

I don't think Picard really expected Seven to beam back there and murder her or he wouldn't have given Seven the weapons.

 

[cooleddie74]

Data isn’t human. I’m talking about human Picard.

And know what? I'd have let Seven slide. Her battle wasn't his. Icheb wasn't his closest thing to family he'd ever had. He's 20 years older than he was when Data died in NEM, no longer the Captain of the Enterprise and on bad terms with more than a few people in Starfleet because of a rescue mission that ended in catastrophe. He's not the same Picard you remember from TNG and the TNG Movies any more than Kirk was the same man in TWOK that he was in TOS.

 

[Nyotarules]

GR quote - I thought half-breeds have traditionally in drama have always been highly interesting characters.

What is interesting the Spock character is based on a racist concept of people of mixed heritage, white society assume mixed race people have this war going on between two identities. The irony is, if there is a cultural war it is because of the racist society the 'half-breed' (a racist term in itself) was born in and lives in. If fictional 23rd century humans are meant to be socially progressive, Spock having a human mother should not be raising any eyebrows with his human colleagues and friends. But yeah, I know it was the 1960's.
I would hope if a similar character was created in a modern Trek show, the above concept of 'torn half-breed' would be put to bed.

As for Picard and his 'evolved humanity' mantra, based on his TNG character, that is Picard spouting his personal belief. I do not assume the other billions of humans living in the UFP and the colonies are singing from the same hymn sheet. Picard is a privileged Terran and he sings the song of the privileged.

BTW I would prefer to live on late 23rd century, early 24th century Star Trek Earth compared to today, experience what it is like to be a privileged Terran, where the universe revolves totally around your culture would be interesting, as long non Terrans are not just tolerated but appreciated as well.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I don't think Picard really expected Seven to beam back there and murder her or he wouldn't have given Seven the weapons.

I agree. It's that Seven has embraced being a gunslinger dealing with the lawless land. Picard is about trying to rise above.

Seven even says she admires him for it and doesn't want to disillusion him further.