Spoilers Let’s talk about the destruction of Trek utopia…

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Anters, Feb 24, 2020.

  1. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Commodore Commodore

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    I still like the Picard show but I get what you mean. I had the same with Luke in the ST. We have our hero who believed he could turn Dart Vader who killed Ben. But wanted to kill his nephew who had a dark dream.
     
  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    These are characters not heroes or deities or gods.
     
  3. AlanC9

    AlanC9 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Define "advanced." In technology, sure, presumably including laws and so forth. But humans themselves are not supposed to be different from modern humans.
     
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  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They won't change it.

    Star Trek was meant to show humanity, both good and ill. You cannot just assume we are going to get better as a species. That's a fool's errand at best, and TNG was most guilty of it. That "we've evolved" while at the same time looking down on people as lesser because they don't share that evolved sentiment. That's laughable at best, insulting at worst, and does little to inspire me in this current time.

    People don't have to like current Trek but it not dystopian, not ruining Trek and not any worse or better than past Trek.

    I would suggest not watching it.

    Indeed yes, because ultimately these are stories about humans for humans. If the audience cannot relate then the story is meaningless.
     
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  5. Pubert

    Pubert Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well you have one thing right. I’m not watching much and it looks like plenty of there are bailing. Thank god it’s only 10 eps a season. Hopefully season 4 will be discovery’s last and season 3 will be Picard last. Even better if they end Picard at season 2.
     
  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Or, you just don't watch it and don't worry about it since it clearly means nothing to you.

    While others, like myself, actually enjoy it, are entertained by it, and maybe connect with the characters like people have done with past Treks, but I didn't with TNG.

    IDIC-not just for jewelry anymore.
     
  7. Pubert

    Pubert Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    totally agree with you lynx. Star Trek is just generic sci fi now with bright see thru holo panels and everything. Even back to TOS humanity has learned to evolve in its behavior. Hard to believe that Picard shows humanity just like it is now even talking like 20th and 21st century humans. With the same exact slang. They even have the sane clothes we do. Yeah I used to watch Star Trek to get away from the real world and see a fantasy world where humans had finally gotten over their petty squabbles. Yeah we got the bad Starfleet admiral every now and then and the darker storylines in DS9 but there was always that humanity really is better in the background. That positivity. That’s all gone now.
     
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  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    "We're killers but we're not going to kill today."
    "Keep any bigotry in your quarters."
    "Revenge, captain?" "Why not?"

    Humanity is humanity. The evolved sense was greatly overstated. We were just presented as more willing to work together.

    And, as per usual, those who decry Picard as dystopian don't understand what that actually means. The Federation wasn't shown in any dystopian view. Picard rejected their decision and walked. That's not dystopian.
     
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  9. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    What they are is neocons who never really understood/understand Star Trek, and are angry that Discovery has women in power on the ship and gay people, and that it has minorities at the front, and not at the back, of the bus.
     
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  10. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You probably expect me to reply a certain way... but I'm not going to do that.

    I think you should give TOS another look and maybe given VOY Seasons 4-7 another chance even if Kes isn't there. Combined, it's seven more seasons of Star Trek in the style you seem to prefer.
     
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  11. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    That reminds me....

    [​IMG]


    'Cause I was born in a dump
    My mama died and my daddy got drunk
    He left me here to die in poverty
    In the middle of Wilhelmina Colony

    I grew up in a crappy ceramic plastic shack
    Raggedy clothes, and a spacesuit that was wack
    The Fates know, how I can't bear to be
    In this place called Wilhelmina Colony!

    But it's a home, yeah
    The only life I'll ever know
    And The Fates know, how I can't bear to be
    In this place called Wilhelmina Colony, yeah!

    I'm gonna leave and get a job
    With the help and the grace from above
    Save my money and get rich, you all see
    And bring it back to Wilhelmina Colony!

    Bring explosives and robot cranes
    Blow it up and start all over again
    And I'll rebuild everything, make it a thing of beauty
    That deserves the name, Wilhelmina Colony!

    'Cause it's a home, yeah, yeah-
    The only life I'll ever know!
    And I despise you, 'cause you're filthy-but I love you because you're my home!

    Hey, Wilhelmina, hey Wilhelmina,
    Now you're dirty and you're filthy
    Wilhelmina Colony!

    I'm gonna get me some explosives
    And I'll bring me a crane
    And then blow it up
    I'll tear down and start out all over again

    Hey Wilhelmina,Wilhelmina Colony
    I love you, yeah
    Because you're my home
    But you're dirty and you're filthy
    Wilhelmina Colony

    I'm gonna blow you up
    I'm gonna tear you down
    And I'll build me a town
    That I will be proud to show

    But I'll keep the name
    I'm gonna keep the name
    I'm gonna keep the name
    Wilhelmina Colony, Wilhelmina Colony

    Wilhelmina Colony, Colony, Colony, Colony
    I'm talkin' 'bout
    Wilhelmina Colony, Colony, oh yeah!

    Wilhelmina Colony (sung to the tune of 'Tobacco Road')-John D. Loudermilk (Lou Rawls version)
     
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  12. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Commodore Commodore

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    Bjayzal gained Seven's trust and began a relationship with her purely to gain access to ex-borg. Bjayzal lured Icheb using a fake distress call, captured him and then had his borg components removed without anesthetic. Bjayazal enabled the closest thing Seven had to a son to be brutalised. That is pure unforgiveable evil and Bjayzal was anything but helpless.

    Seven made Bjayzal's death quick and instant, a mercy that Bjayzal never afforded Icheb.
     
  13. unimatrix7

    unimatrix7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Until he gets to ‘One’ and hates it because the lights are off. Then like four episodes later comes ‘Night.’

    you tryna give Lynx an aneurysm?
     
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  14. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Star Trek on my Most Utopic to Least Utopic Scale:

    1. TNG Seasons 1-2
    2. TNG Seasons 3-7 (automatically moves down a notch once Gene Roddenberry fades into the background)
    3. TOS
    4. VOY
    5. DS9 Seasons 1-2 (pre-Dominion)
    6. PIC
    7. DS9 Seasons 3-5 (leading up to the Dominion War)
    8. DSC Season 2
    9. DS9 Seasons 6-7 (the Dominion War)
    10. DSC Season 1

    I'm not including ENT because it's Pre-Federation. I'm also not including LD or DSC Season 3 because "Spoilers!" But I don't think I'm really spoiling anything by saying Lower Decks is about as far from dark as you can get.

    Most of the darkness in Picard comes from personal tragedy. On a galactic scale, things aren't that bad. None of the major powers are at war. The Dominion War is a distant memory. The tragedy on Mars took place 14 years before the series is set. The Romulans seem to be recovering from Hobus pretty well, all things considered. The Starfleet uniforms even have more color now than they did during the FC/late-DS9 days.

    (For those wondering: I put TOS above VOY because Kirk didn't have to worry about integrating Maquis crewmembers or always being "under constant attack," to quote Janeway.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
  15. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    What a bizarre thing to say. Does The Lord of the Rings ruin the fun of The Hobbit? Does the tonal darkness of The Empire Strikes Back ruin the fun of A New Hope? Does the big revelation at the end of The Matrix Reloaded ruin the fun of The Matrix? Does Henry V ruin Henry IV? Do the events of The Ill-Made Knight and The Candle in the Wind ruin the fun of The Sword in the Stone? Does Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ruin Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone? Did The Dark Knight ruin Batman Begins?

    I am sorry to hear that you prefer cheap 1980s overlit schemes over rich, luscious, cinematic lighting schemes that used to be too expensive for TV. Tell me, are you the sort of person who would prefer to use ceiling-mounted florescent lighting in your home?

    Nothing about PIC is dystopian. Bad things happen and then Picard leads the Federation back into decency.

    And the plot of PIC is how he goes back to being the heroic figure we all remember. Complaining that he doesn't start the story in a position of triumphalism is just silly.

    You speak as though there's something wrong with being an android.

    They're not dystopias. That's just false.

    You mean the show that depicts stalking your ex as a totally normal, understandable thing? The show that depicts Kelly as being unreasonable for being upset by? That show?

    Yeah, real "optimistic," that one. :rolleyes:

    I broadly agree that most of the darkness in PIC is tonal rather than plot. But I do want to push back a bit on the idea that the Romulan supernova wasn't that big of a deal; it clearly involved a death toll on a scale unprecedented in interstellar history.
     
  16. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Thus the reason I said "all things considered." ;)

    The Romulan Free State seems -- seems -- like something very formidable. And they had six years to prepare and evacuate from Romulus, which leads me to believe that the destruction wasn't as devastating as it could've been, with so much advanced notice.

    I liken the Romulan Star Empire's Soviet Union to the Romulan Free State's Russia. The other remnants are broken up into smaller nation states.
     
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  17. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    General Nedar's fleet may have been, but we don't know if the rest of the RFS has access to that kind of firepower.

    Who knows, Nedar (i.e. Oh) may actually be the leader of another faction competing with the RFS and equally trying to lay claim to being the "real" Romulan Empire...
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2020
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  18. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    And as I said, the actual big point of that episode wasn't that kiss, but agitation on behalf of characters like Alexander (Michael Dunn) who at the time were looked down upon because of their size and had to strive to be noticed and regarded as being of worth, something that Dunn had to do himself, a lot in his life.
     
  19. Odo

    Odo Commander Red Shirt

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    The future is in the choices we make, and, time and again in Picard, Jean-Luc chooses communication and reason over violence and fear. I believe Chabon mentioned that he tried to imply that the Dominon War profoundly influenced Starfleet and the Federation, creating an atmosphere of paranoia and aggression, and the Attack on Mars heightened those trends tremendously. This show is about finding a way back to the ideals that make Star Trek special.
     
  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And exploring new life.
     
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