Spoilers Let’s talk about the destruction of Trek utopia…

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Anters, Feb 24, 2020.

  1. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I like Stargate SG-1 and Farscape. I haven't watched any episode of Seaquest yet.
    However, I still consider TNG a masterpiece since it re-vitalizedStar Trek and took it a great leap forward which also led to the birth of DS9 and Voyager.
     
  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Mileage will vary. I don't put any of those three Trek series on the same level as TOS. Masterpiece is not a term I toss around lightly.
     
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  3. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    Going back to 1996, this is the fifth new Star Trek series in my Internet Experience. Out of all of them, I think the tearing apart of Picard is the most forced, rigid, and easily refuted.

    At least with Discovery, I can understand the upset-ness over changing the look of the TOS Era, how the shift in showrunners mid-season effected storylines, and even I'll admit that the Spore Drive is kind of wonky.

    But with Picard? All of it seems to amount to "But it doesn't feel like the show I remember!" That's the common denominator. That doesn't make it a bad show. That just makes it not to some people's tastes.
     
  4. Bornin1980something

    Bornin1980something Captain Captain

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    It is entitled 'Cupid's Dagger,' and it really does have problems. Embarrassingly, it was first broadcast just as Harvey Weinstein was first accused.

    Still, that was season one. I would very much recommend season two.
     
  5. Aragorn

    Aragorn Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If you give TNG credit for the birth of DS9 and blame for the birth of Voyager, does it comes out ahead or behind? :p
     
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  6. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Arguably The Best Poster Named cooleddie Moderator

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    The problems with DSC are structural and legitimate aesthetic issues to one degree or another. The perceived problems with PIC are mostly empty handwringing over Jean-Luc Picard no longer being the Picard from a series that went off the air more than a quarter of a century ago.
     
  7. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Given that the series is basically built on the return of JeanLuc Picard, you don't think that Picard being substantially a different character is not a problem?

    Again, Picard is the "hook."
     
  8. donners22

    donners22 Commodore Commodore

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    Then I'm surprised that you'd cite TNG as a masterpiece, given the frequent recourse to predictable tropes and bland characters, with creative minds like Moore and Behr frustrated at being stuck in Roddenberry's box. Those listed in the main cast are good, the admiral of the week is bad. Not much to figure out.

    Voyager's rightly criticised for its lazy writing, but it's only so glaring because TNG already drove the tropes into the ground.

    As to stories and acting, I'd take what we've seen so far of Picard over TNG any day.

    [LEFT][SIZE=4][COLOR=rgb(20, 20, 20)]
    If Picard was the same as he was in TNG, despite the passage of time, despite not being captain of a starship, despite the events which have happened, that would be far more of a problem. It would make no sense at all.

    If he was captain of a starship in the shiny TNG bubble, that would also be a problem, because it'd be the same thing we'd already seen many episodes of.

    The hook is seeing how the character manages in a different situation to what we've seen him in before.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/LEFT]
     
  9. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Arguably The Best Poster Named cooleddie Moderator

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    He's 20 years older. Kirk in TUC was a very different character than he was in TOS, TAS or TMP. Age and maturity tend to do that to people both in real life and in fiction.

    But Picard is still at his core the same person he was in TNG based on the talk he gives to Rios in last week's episode wherein he reinforces his belief that decency and truth are going to be their greatest weapons against the lies and murderous behavior of the Tal Shiar and the Zhat Vash. He's older and more bitter after Data's death and the failure of the Romulan rescue armada but he's still Jean-Luc Picard beneath all of that built-up scar tissue.
     
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  10. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I will try to rewatch the whole series from start if I get a chance to do so.

    But remember, watching The Orville is like......well, imagine if you are a hockey fan, let's say Chicago Blackhawks (if you don't like that team, replace it with your favorite team and if you don't like hockey, replace hockey with baseball, football, basketball or anything you like).

    You have cheered for our team for year, seen almost all homegames live plus the away games on TV and more and less lived for the hockey season.

    Then the owners decide to move the team to El Paso and call it "El Paso Chihuahuas"!

    Your world is shattered. you can't watch NHL anymore on TV because it's impossible for you to cheer for the former opponents of your team and you HATE the El Paso Chihuahuas with a vengeance. Just the mention of the team makes you wanna throw everything in your apartment out through the window, the only reason for not doing so is that you don't want to kill innocent people on the street below.

    Your friends are doing all they can to cheer you up and one day your buddy Chucky comes up with amazing news:

    "We do have a team in the town now, it's called Lakeside Gnomes and plays in the Central Hockey League.

    "Ah, crap" you think. But you diecide to follow your buddy to a game.

    However, you discover that there are some differences. Instead of United Center with 22 000 seats, it's now Lakeside Arena with 4000 seats, the jerseys are red, all right but not with Chief Blackhawk but an angry gnome. Instead of up to 18 000-22 000 cheering fans, there are now about 500 yelling fans, most of them drunk, instead of Chicago Blackhawks against Boston Bruins with a face-off between Patrick Kane and David Pastrnak, we now have the Lakeside Gnomes against Quahog Brewers and a face-off between Al Bundy and Pete Griffin. :guffaw:

    But all of a sudden you realize that you actually enjoy it in a way. It is at least funny and it's a hockey league where you don't have to get El Paso Chihuahuas stuck in your face from time to time.

    But it will never be the same as the real things in the good,old days. :(
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  11. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I actually like Voyager, at least the first three seasons when the series had a direction.

    As for ahead or behind, I leave it to your imagination. ;)
     
  12. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, the hook is reconnecting with a established character that we know.
     
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  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Nothing can ever be.

    And I've experienced the sports team analogy you cited for real-I live in the Pacific Northwest and the Seattle Supersonics. They eventually moved and became the Oklahoma City Thunder. Now, I do like the Thunder, and enjoy cheering them on but, no, it's not the same. And, even if the Sonics came back it wouldn't be the same.

    I get wanting something familiar, but I fee like there is the holding on to the past that doesn't allow any enjoyment at all now.
     
  14. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Depending on the viewpoint it could be like one of the more hopeful black mirror episodes where technology is helping us.

    If Trek future's response to someone choosing to be an addict is the same as modern day then that is extremely bleak. If the sciences have advanced then there should be something, anything that makes it better than today. And if not better then I would like to see it at least be somewhat different from today. I'm not looking for a strict utopia just a little bit of hope
     
  15. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

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    After summing up the first 8 episodes of Picard, I think it is safe to say now that it is showing dystopia, or some elements of it. There's a lot destruction (mars attack, Romulus destroyed) lawlessness, senseless murdering. And then there's conspiracies, and apocalyptic paranoia.

    And a general glum attitude everyone has. I mean, Everyone is glum. That fact that the glumness is connected to the main story involving the Synths and paranoia, that actually puts it further into the dystopian category.

    Saying it's a little dystopian, is not destroying Star Trek or it's canon, but it is showing some elements of it.
     
  16. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Star Trek has always shown elements of that are down or less than ideal or glum, so this is not new.

    I still don't know how this fits dystopia: an imagined state or society in which there is great suffering or injustice, typically one that is totalitarian or post-apocalyptic.

    We haven't seen evidence that the Federation as a whole is suffering or enduring great injustice.
     
  17. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    So you're saying it's Star Trek?
     
  18. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No! Star Trek would never have murder or threaten genocide or poverty or lawlessness!!!!!!

    It would always have pristine conditions and our heroes always left the world better than when they first arrived. That is the Starfleet way!


    :D
     
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  19. KennyB

    KennyB I have spoken............ Moderator

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    I'm just not able to understand your point. Are YOU the same person you were 20 years ago? I know I am not. He IS the same character, just older. What did you expect? Still in command of a starship? Maybe an admiral doing paperwork all day?
     
  20. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    We are not seeing a dystopia here.

    As I said, this show takes place outside of Federation territory. So while the Federation surely has made bad decisions, it doesn't mean the organization itself has been turned evil. They just screw up sometimes, like anyone would.

    People always expect governments - real or fictional - to be perfect, but none ever are. None.
     
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